How much do you call arm swing during FT?

LepTalBldgs · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 12, 2002, 02:39pm

How often do you guys/gals call the arm wars that go on during free throws? You know, where players in the blocks fight/slap each other with their arms? I assume you warn, but do you ever call it as a violation? What is the signal and how do coaches react (be gentle on the reply to that last question)?

ScottParks · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 12, 2002, 02:49pm

I don't call this a violation. If there's swinging and swimming going on after a warning, then I'm calling a foul.

DownTownTonyBrown · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 12, 2002, 05:27pm

Girls Varsity game last evening. I called my first elbow swinging violation of the season. I was so excited that I yelled it out in the direction of the coaches and the scorer's table then had to go over to the scorers and explain my mistake ... that this was just a violation like a travel call, and that I didn't need to explicitly tell them about it. They kindly said that I hadn't confused them.

The coach was a bit excited and felt his player was properly pivoting - arms and body moving together. I just shook my head and said "No. White ball."

All in all, this was an extemely ugly game; You all know how we can generally get through a game with 20 to maybe 30 fouls. I'm certain we called more than 50 - we reached double bonus for at least one of the teams in the 1st quarter and again in the 3rd.

Our first player to foul out was about a minute into the 3rd quarter. I think only 4 or 5 players fouled out but that was likely because we passed on twice as many fouls as we called.

We did well in that we avoided any "T" situations - no one got too terribly bent out of shape. There has got to be a better solution than call more fouls. Anyone want to offer up some ideas?

andrew45 · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 12, 2002, 06:29pm

Unless it impeeds on another players progress or there is a heavy or deliberate contact then i would not call this a violation.

DownTownTonyBrown · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 12, 2002, 06:48pm

This is a new rule this year... no contact = violation (no longer a technical foul).

If there is contact the penalty is a foul.

Of couse you didn't see what I saw, BUT You would be wrong if you didn't call it. It is a threat of violent contact - it could be interpretted as a form of taunting. "When I get the ball you get the h&ll out of the way or I'm gonna knock you the **** out."

When would you call it? after contact... now a violation? after a broken nose? a broken jaw? an unconscious player? a permanently deformed face?

There is a reason for the rule - player safety, and a violation is a compromise from last year's technical foul penalty. The compromise was made so officials would call it more often, rather than waiting for the severity of the act to justify calling a technical foul.

We need to be on the same page.

Camron Rust · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 12, 2002, 07:42pm

Hey DownTown, I think they're talking about the silly arm battles as the teams are along the lane for a FT, not swinging the elbows.

Jurassic Referee · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 12, 2002, 08:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Hey DownTown, I think they're talking about the silly arm battles as the teams are along the lane for a FT, not swinging the elbows.

Andrew 45 is also from New Zealand.He's obviously not familiar with FED rules.Another reason to cut him some slack.

Welcome to the board,Andrew.

williebfree · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 12, 2002, 09:22pm

The intitial posting was about the "arm wars" during a FT. An additional observation expanded it to the Elbow swinging call (Violation vs. Technical)...

Arm wars: unless a player is controlling the opponent, I warn on minor contact, call fouls on major infractions.

Elbow swings: I am glad that the new rule exists. I was working a lower level tourney last weekend where a girl felt pressured and attempted to create space with her swinging elbows. There was not a defender in the immediate area, so I felt it very appropriate to address this as a violation. With the old rule I would not have blown the whistle because I would be obliged to issue the "T".

[Edited by williebfree on Dec 12th, 2002 at 10:18 PM]

Nevadaref · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 13, 2002, 05:08am

According to the rules it is not a violation to have your hand or arms extended into another players marked lane-space. It is only a violation when a foot breaks the plane. Double check 9-1-9. So if you are going to call anything you have to call a foul. Calling this a violation is just plain wrong.
Since this arm extending action is legal (unless the contact is a foul), I also don't warn the players or verbally chastise them.