Look Back Rule..

[MJT]

We are considering "faking a throw" as not just raising the ball, but moving it forward. What are you doing to constitute a fake?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MJT

We are considering "faking a throw" as not just raising the ball, but moving it forward. What are you doing to constitute a fake?

In ASA, it must be an attempt to retire a runner or BR. IOW, if the movement could not reasonably lead to a possible out, it is not a play.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

In ASA, it must be an attempt to retire a runner or BR. IOW, if the movement could not reasonably lead to a possible out, it is not a play.

Not sure where you got that..

Since you are a guru, I'll await clarification in hopes of learning something.

In my view, "faking a throw", whether they move the ball or not, most definitely takes off LBR for the moment.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I dont see where "reasonably lead to a possible out" comes into play.

Pitcher wants her LBR protection, pitcher does nothing.

Thats LBR.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Not sure where you got that..

Not that you couldn't look this up yourself, but:

ASA Rule 1 PLAY.

"An attempt by a defensive player to retire a batter-runner or runner. A pitch is not considered a play except as it relates to an appeal."

ASA Rule 8.7.T.EXCEPTION Ther runner will not be declared out if:
"1. A play is made on any runner. A fake throw is considered a play"


A play is defined as an attempt to retire a player. A fake throw is a play, but then again, any indication of a throw could be a move to retire a player. What isn't a play is the pitcher simply moving the ball. I've seen coaches who want the LBR off just because a pitcher has the ball in her glove and while watching the runners, brings the glove and hand together.

Now that the possibility of putting a runner out is part of the definition of a play, I think that forces the umpire to actually see more than ball or body movement by the pitcher.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Not that you couldn't look this up yourself, but:

ASA Rule 1 PLAY.

"An attempt by a defensive player to retire a batter-runner or runner. A pitch is not considered a play except as it relates to an appeal."

ASA Rule 8.7.T.EXCEPTION Ther runner will not be declared out if:
"1. A play is made on any runner. A fake throw is considered a play"

I understand that mike.

There is an additional aspect.. which is runner reaction (as discussed by WMB), that is why I questioned your initial comment. That is a criteria you are not applying here, and I was wondering why.

You can't reasonably protect a pitcher who is taking even fake stabs at runners IMO. They dont deserve that protection and are not entitled to it by rule.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

I understand that mike.

There is an additional aspect.. which is runner reaction (as discussed by WMB), that is why I questioned your initial comment. That is a criteria you are not applying here, and I was wondering why.

You can't reasonably protect a pitcher who is taking even fake stabs at runners IMO. They dont deserve that protection and are not entitled to it by rule.

I believe the RS (nee POE) is out of date. There have been changes in the rules portion which are not reflected in the RS.

This is the first year a "play" has been defined in the rule book. Originally, it didn't even consider the LBR until brought to the attention of those working on the wording.

Also brought to the staff's attention was that the rule exception previously stated that the play on "another" runner dropped the LBR. This was changed in the rule to read "any" runner (as it should), yet this wording has not been incorporated in RS 34.

Of course, there is another way to handle this "cat and mouse" game, isn't there?

[CecilOne]

I understand theapplication of the rule, but maybe not the semantics of this discussion. Please help me follow how a fake throw is an
"attempt by a defensive player to retire a batter-runner or runner"
if the
"movement could not reasonably lead to a possible out".

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by MJT

We are considering "faking a throw" as not just raising the ball, but moving it forward. What are you doing to constitute a fake?

An umpire judgment of a pitcher's actions does not define a play on the runner. We are asked to judge whether or not a runner reacted to the pitcher's actions (ASA RS 34-J).

If a pitcher takes a quick "jab step" in the direction of the runner, even with the ball at her side, you may not define that as a "play." But if the runner reacts to that motion, you may have cause to remove the LBR temporarily.

WMB