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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 30, 2007, 08:29pm
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With the givens that
- the runner did NOT slow down her run
- the runner did NOT deviate her path to home plate

I do not have obstruction here - can't.
I'm with Mike, Steve, Andy, and several others.
As the skill level goes up, players do what they do by decision and for a reason. I suspect, from the picture, that the runner was safe.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 30, 2007, 09:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
WMB posted a thread awhile back asking about the "deviation" thing.
OBS Again (and again and again etc.)

You might want to go back and re-read that post. The majority of you supported OBS even without visible deviation of the runner. Mike went so far as to critize (gently) me for failing to make the OBS call.

Why is it different now?

The wide, reach-back slide has been almost automatic for college players, and many high level Travel and H.S. players. WHY? Because of exactly what you see in this picture. Catchers have been blocking the plate for years, and getting away with it. But we are supposed to stop it today. And we can't agree what "IT" is!

Regarding the OP pic - if NCAA game, legal play. If below that, under revised obstruction rule - probably is OBS.

WMB
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 30, 2007, 09:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestMichBlue
OBS Again (and again and again etc.)

You might want to go back and re-read that post. The majority of you supported OBS even without visible deviation of the runner. Mike went so far as to critize (gently) me for failing to make the OBS call.

Why is it different now?

The wide, reach-back slide has been almost automatic for college players, and many high level Travel and H.S. players. WHY? Because of exactly what you see in this picture. Catchers have been blocking the plate for years, and getting away with it. But we are supposed to stop it today. And we can't agree what "IT" is!

Regarding the OP pic - if NCAA game, legal play. If below that, under revised obstruction rule - probably is OBS.

WMB

no ones calling that OBS IMO.

Even if they say OBS here in a theory discussion.. that play is seen over and over. I mostly work high level TB 16A-18G - its not called. I dont think I've ever had an Off coach ask for it to be called.. because thats the way its done.

I agree with you in general, by the book - that is clearly OBS because it is obviously causing runner to take an action that is deviated from a straight path to the base. That catcher is clearly impeding the runner. That catcher does not have the ball.

"oh but the runner decided to do that".. yeah, because of the situation.. ie a catchers in the way without the ball.

I wouldnt want to work a game where that was called, wouldnt call it myself, arguments that its NOT obs in a strict black and white interpretation of the rule is unsound IMO.

When you start seeing BR's *hook/slide by* a safety bag on a bang bang @ 1B, you can start thinking "hey it must be a better way to do it".
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Last edited by wadeintothem; Wed May 30, 2007 at 09:54pm.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 30, 2007, 09:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M
With the givens that
- the runner did NOT slow down her run
- the runner did NOT deviate her path to home plate

I do not have obstruction here - can't.
I'm with Mike, Steve, Andy, and several others.
As the skill level goes up, players do what they do by decision and for a reason. I suspect, from the picture, that the runner was safe.
A) Sliding is slower than running. It is tactical, giving up speed for body position.
B) That is obviously a "deviated path" to home base.
C) Safe/Out has nothing to with whether there was OBS or it should be at least signalled.

I think you are justifying you _correctly_ not calling this OBS by pretending it really isnt OBS, just "player decision".

Its player decision based on OBS, an adjustment because no one is ever going to call that obs, so try to be safe instead.
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Last edited by wadeintothem; Wed May 30, 2007 at 10:00pm.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 31, 2007, 02:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
A) Sliding is slower than running. It is tactical, giving up speed for body position.
B) That is obviously a "deviated path" to home base.
C) Safe/Out has nothing to with whether there was OBS or it should be at least signalled.

I think you are justifying you _correctly_ not calling this OBS by pretending it really isnt OBS, just "player decision".

Its player decision based on OBS, an adjustment because no one is ever going to call that obs, so try to be safe instead.
Wade,
You're right, whether a runner is safe or not has nothing to do with whether or not obstruction occurred. If I implied that it did, I gave the wrong impression.
Like I said - as the skill level goes up, the expectations change. That game in the pic is adult ball and I'm assuming a high level of skill in those players. I work a fair amount of high level games - men's majors with a large number of international players. I do not have obstruction on that play in the picture.

Now, in the description given, we had a couple of facts given. I accepted those facts as facts. If you're not accepting them as factual, we are discussing two different plays.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 31, 2007, 03:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
A) Sliding is slower than running. It is tactical, giving up speed for body position.
Correct, voluntary action.

Quote:
B) That is obviously a "deviated path" to home base.
You cannot possibly make that determination from this picture alone.

Quote:
C) Safe/Out has nothing to with whether there was OBS or it should be at least signalled.
Agree.

Quote:
I think you are justifying you _correctly_ not calling this OBS by pretending it really isnt OBS, just "player decision".

Its player decision based on OBS, an adjustment because no one is ever going to call that obs, so try to be safe instead.
Again, a voluntary act which is not cause for an OBS call. BTW, if I remember correctly, this exact type of play was called last year in the World Cup at OKC. Runner scored and arm was dropped.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 31, 2007, 10:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Correct, voluntary action.

You cannot possibly make that determination from this picture alone.
I can surmise that she moved to an outside angle and slide position based on catchers position, which is obviously directly in front of the plate..

but I agree.. I don't KNOW it. Could be anything. This runner could possible always take outside/longer angles and slide outside every base for all I know. She could have been having a seizure.. she could have slipped on a marble.

My argument was for discussion sake.

Most given scenarios can be dismissed with "HTBT"; thats the easy way out.

Discussing theory is what I was doing.
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Last edited by wadeintothem; Thu May 31, 2007 at 10:17pm.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 10:25pm
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Tennessee vs Arizona winning run

Dear Blues,

I know many of you watched the broadcast of tonite's game. R1 on 3 was running on contact and scored on a slap hit where she had to reach around the catcher who was set up more in the baseline than Antonella's pic. PU did not signal obstruction. I saw a clear deviation of the runner's path prior to the catcher receiving the ball. The umpire did not signal obstruction. What did you see?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 06, 2007, 01:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reccer
Dear Blues,

I know many of you watched the broadcast of tonite's game. R1 on 3 was running on contact and scored on a slap hit where she had to reach around the catcher who was set up more in the baseline than Antonella's pic. PU did not signal obstruction. I saw a clear deviation of the runner's path prior to the catcher receiving the ball. The umpire did not signal obstruction. What did you see?
She deviated her path alright, because if she had gone straight to the plate they might still be playing. IMHO, The ONLY way she was going to be safe (save for dropping the ball or something else) was to go to the back of the plate, which she did.

Two things here:
1) There may well have not been obstruction.
2) In college, even had there been obstruction, there would not necessarily be any penalty associated with the obstruction, especially if there had been no obstruction infraction by UT earlier in the game.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 06, 2007, 08:06am
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BKB,

I did not get to see the earlier play you referenced. I agree that under NCAA rules "she was about to receive" so Blue made the proper call.

If you don't think this was obstruction for high school and ASA rules, I am inclined to go back to coaching old school (not so concerned about being in the base path without possession of the ball.)
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 06, 2007, 10:58am
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Actually, I was in the about to receive corner also, until I saw the replay from the camera in left field. Of course, this isn't an angle the umpire gets to see.

I believe it clearly showed the runner changing direction prior to the ball getting into the picture frame. That would be OBS in all cases, but seeing a slow motion replay from an angle the umpire did not have makes it easy.
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