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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 10, 2007, 02:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mook11
I didn't think that this protest would be that hard to win, but it looks like I am in the minority. Similar situation - R1 rounding second on a base hit to RF. As she rounds second, she colides with R6 and falls down. FU signals OBS, so I tell my runner to get up and hustle to 3B. She does and is called out. PU states that he doesn't think there is obstruction. So - is she out. Is this bad coaching on my part.
Relying on this signal from an umpire to make coaching decisions IS bad coaching. If your runner was going to be given third base on the OBS, then what good does sending your runner do?

What if PU saw the runner change direction to run at F6, and BU didn't? And after discussion they agree there was no OBS. The DDB signal is no guarantee, and coaches should not make a decision based on seeing such a signal.

Explain to us what you would say to a protest committee in the initial sitch? How would you easily win such a protest?
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 10, 2007, 03:04pm
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I didn't say i would win easily, I said i thought I would win easily. Apparently not. My protest would be that OBS was called as a judgement call and I didn't think other umpires could overule judgement calls. To me this isn't any different than the U1 calling a runner safe at first and then having the PU say - "Nope, that runner was a half step late-out." Then U3 says -"Looked out from here" I thought U1 had to make the final determination (even if he/she goes for help). I did not realize that a majority of other umpires could overrule.

As to another question, the reason I would send the runner to third is that perhaps the ball could still be thrown away or I might ger B/R to 2B. Thanks for the heads up, though. Whenever I see the umpire signal OBS I thought that was for the coaches benefit. Why signal OBS if the call may change later? Just a question.

Thanks for the information on this thread.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 10, 2007, 03:34pm
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Fair enough on the protest.

To your last question ... I keep trying to say that the signal you read as obstruction merely means delayed dead ball ... and could be caused by different things. I do admit that MOST of the time if it's the BU making this signal it is because he saw OBS. But it does not ALWAYS mean that.

Regarding sending your runners - you may make assumptions as to the base a runner is protected to that differ from the umpire's assumption. Sending a runner after seeing what you read as an OBS call will only help if you entice a ball to be thrown away - kind of a slim chance when weight against the possible negatives - your runner outrunning her protection, for example, or the DDB not, in fact, resulting in OBS.

Most of us here have seen coaches make assumptions based on OBS, and have seen it go poorly for them. My example is on an F4 blocking the bag on a slide play into 2nd. I rule OBS and signal ... and the ball gets away toward third. Coach yells, "ARM!!!!", which is apparently his signal to his runners to attempt another base due to the umpire's signal. R1 gets up and tries to go to 3rd, and is tagged by F6 who had just picked up the ball. WORSE, BR heads to 2nd, and is tagged out easily.

Needless to say, after I told coach I had R1 protected between 1st and 2nd, and only to 2nd, and BOTH of his runners were out, he managed to eject himself.

Another I witnessed, while grading umpires - varsity level travel game being played under ASA rules. R1 from 1st rounding 2nd doesn't see F6 and they go down in a heap. BU signals OBS. BR is sent to 2nd after coach sees the signal, and makes it barely. F4 now has the ball. R1 literally crawls back to the base. As soon as she gets to 2nd, they tag BR again, who is now out.

That coach managed to stay in the game ... although I am not sure I'd have kept him in if I was the umpire on the spot.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 10, 2007, 04:48pm
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mcrowder-

Thank you for all of your insight.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 14, 2007, 01:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
Another I witnessed, while grading umpires - varsity level travel game being played under ASA rules. R1 from 1st rounding 2nd doesn't see F6 and they go down in a heap. BU signals OBS. BR is sent to 2nd after coach sees the signal, and makes it barely. F4 now has the ball. R1 literally crawls back to the base. As soon as she gets to 2nd, they tag BR again, who is now out.

That coach managed to stay in the game ... although I am not sure I'd have kept him in if I was the umpire on the spot.
I don't think I have an out here -- although I can understand the reasoning.

I don't have my book with me, but the phrase "protect the obstructed runner to the base you judge they would have reached, AND put any other runners on the base they would have reached had there been no obstruction" is stuck in my head. Can we put R1 on 2B and return R2 to 1B?
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 14, 2007, 02:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by argodad
I don't think I have an out here -- although I can understand the reasoning.

I don't have my book with me, but the phrase "protect the obstructed runner to the base you judge they would have reached, AND put any other runners on the base they would have reached had there been no obstruction" is stuck in my head. Can we put R1 on 2B and return R2 to 1B?
I don't think you can. The runner legally attained 2B. Any edge to a ruling should be to the offended team, not the team causing the OBS.
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