Illegal Pitch?? or just borderline....

[I Ump 2]

ASA rule set. JO tourney. Fastpitch 18's

Lefty pitcher. Left foot (pivot) has back of her heel of her cleats touching front of pitching plate. Right foot has toes on pitching plate, towards the rear. Pitch now begins. Pivot foot never moves or slides forward. As right foot/leg heads towards home plate on pitch - she must raise her heel and pushes off the ball of her foot - a good 6+ inches from the rubber - and drags her toe several more inches. Her pivot foot never leaves the ground.

Legal or illegal?? Do I need to offer more info.?

I don't do this age group since my dau. plays in this age so it is not my call and won't be.

Thanks for the opinions.

[mcrowder]

I think that for most umpires, the appearance of this during a pitch will look exactly like any other pitcher who pushes off from the pitcher's plate. Honestly, who can say, with this description, that the pushoff didn't begin while the heel was touching.

I think that even in slow motion, an umpire would be VERY hard pressed to call this illegal. Couple this with the tendency of most umpires to only call egregious violations, and I suspect you will not find many IP's called on this pitcher.

[Four Seam]

In his relatively new video on pitching mechanics, Bill Hillhouse advocates beginning the pitch with the pivot foot on the ground in front of the rubber, the back of the heel touching the rubber. The more common stance is to place the pivot foot on top of the rubber with the break of the arch catching the edge of the rubber. As a pitching coach, I am now coaching other elements of the Hillhouse method, but I'm reluctant to teach my students to put their pivot foot in front of the rubber with only the back of the heel touching partly because I'm concerned that there will be too many umpires who will see a gap between the heel and the rubber too early in the pitch and call an IP.

It seems that if you begin with the foot in front of the rubber with back of heel touching, and pivot normally on the ball of the foot, the heel will lose contact with the rubber.

It would be very helpful if the umpires who carry this board along would give us some good discussion of their views on this subject.

[Ed Maeder]

Originally Posted by I Ump 2

ASA rule set. JO tourney. Fastpitch 18's

Lefty pitcher. Left foot (pivot) has back of her heel of her cleats touching front of pitching plate. Right foot has toes on pitching plate, towards the rear. Pitch now begins. Pivot foot never moves or slides forward. As right foot/leg heads towards home plate on pitch - she must raise her heel and pushes off the ball of her foot - a good 6+ inches from the rubber - and drags her toe several more inches. Her pivot foot never leaves the ground.

Legal or illegal?? Do I need to offer more info.?

I don't do this age group since my dau. plays in this age so it is not my call and won't be.

Thanks for the opinions.

You state that she must raise her heel and pushes off the ball of her foot-a good 6+ inches from the rubber. ASA 6-3-J States "Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate is illegal." How can it be anything but illegal?

[Little Jimmy]

I know I Ump 2 was talking ASA rules, but speaking Fed, the heel of the pivot foot touching the front of the pitchers plate would seem to be legal. One of the diagrams on page 50 of the 2007 rulebook shows this very position.

[Ed Maeder]

Originally Posted by Little Jimmy

I know I Ump 2 was talking ASA rules, but speaking Fed, the heel of the pivot foot touching the front of the pitchers plate would seem to be legal. One of the diagrams on page 50 of the 2007 rulebook shows this very position.

If you read what it says under the pictures though it states that the pivot foot must be on top of the pitchers plate. Also NFHS 6-1-1 states that "The pitcher shall take a position with the pivot foot on or partially on the top surface of the pitchers plate." Where ASA for Female ASA 6-1-C2 States "The pitcher shall take a position with both feet in contact with the pitcher's plate."

[I Ump 2]

This is the discussion I was hoping for. As per ASA, I believe it to be illegal because of the rule stated above by Ed. As also stated above it is perhaps "marginal" and not called.

Another good point is that Bill Hillhouse is teaching this method of foot placement. I guess this is what I enjoy about calling softball (long time ago baseball) we get to see how coaches & players push the envelope of the rules

I have really learned alot from this board - I would really like to hear the opinions from Tom and the other contributors on this site about this footplacement & delivery style.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by I Ump 2

ASA rule set. JO tourney. Fastpitch 18's

Lefty pitcher. Left foot (pivot) has back of her heel of her cleats touching front of pitching plate. Right foot has toes on pitching plate, towards the rear. Pitch now begins. Pivot foot never moves or slides forward. As right foot/leg heads towards home plate on pitch - she must raise her heel and pushes off the ball of her foot - a good 6+ inches from the rubberplate - and drags her toe several more inches. Her pivot foot never leaves the ground.

Legal or illegal?? Do I need to offer more info.?

I don't do this age group since my dau. plays in this age so it is not my call and won't be.

Thanks for the opinions.

Speaking ASA, foot placement is legal. Push off is technically illegal, but since she starts with a legal foot placement and does not move, slide, etc. her foot forward before the stride and push, I would not call it.

[Skahtboi]

In NFHS, ASA and USSSA, since the foot placement is legal, I doubt that I would call an IP here. In NCAA, the foot placement is illegal to begin with, so that would defintely bring an IP call.

[CelticNHBlue]

I can provide (I hope) some clarification. This was a question raised at last years 18 Gold. A member of the national staff provided the following:

The ASA rule requires both feet in contact with the pitcher's plate at the time the pitch starts. The pitch starts when the hands separate. So long as the foot does not move forward, but only pivots on the toes, while not in contact with the pitcher's plate, is a legal delivery.

To the contrary, in NCAA, the rule requires half of the pivot foot on the top surface of the pitcher's plate. This would virtually keep the foot in contact, or very close to, the pitcher's plate prior to the drag.

[Four Seam]

Thanks for an excellent discussion of this topic, covering all rule sets...just what i was hoping for.

[wadeintothem]

The only thing I would say.. for darn sure dont call an IP, which can have serious repercussion, unless you are SURE. Marginal iffy ones.. everyones happy.. hey just move along. If you are the only one noticing it, probably legal enough.

One thing you'll learn.. ugly pitching/unorthodox/strange/weird/odd movements doesnt necessarily = illegal.

Many pitchers do things differently.