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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 12:06am
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Lineup Card Management

Varsity game last week, I was PU. During the game, home HC twice announces subs to me that do not make sense (number of entering player being replaced is not one that I currently have in the game and player reentering into different spot in the batting order.) I notice the inaccuracies and immediately notify HC while we determine the reason for the mistakes (essentially HC not keeping very good track of what's going on). This probably takes 2-3 minutes both times to straighten out. In the back of my mind, I am filing this under preventitive umpiring.

After the game, my partner (very experienced guy, but after watching his work on the bases I was leery of his advice) advised me that what he does when subs are being reported is to just quickly jot down the subs on the back of whatever lineup card is handy, then every couple of innings going back to write numbers in the right spots. I believe he was trying to tell me that I was holding up the game by going to the trouble of recording subs as they occurred. I remember on another thread someone giving a link (I believe cactusumpires) to a powerpoint on keeping a lineup card, and after viewing that I've tried to follow that procedure. I also know after the thread on cleaning the PP that I'm not going to necessarily take advice that is in conflict with what is outlined as umpiring mechanics without running it by you guys first.

This particular topic hits me hard because as I mentioned once before, my daughter is playing high school ball, and there has only been one umpire in her 14 games this season that bothered to record subs. In one early season game, I cringed when there was a question about who was in the game (I swear not one inning after I thought to myself that the PU was asking for trouble) and the PU stopped the game as he took the book for one team over to the other team's dugout to compare what was going on . Ironically, the one umpire that did record subs still dropped the ball when he allowed my daughter a second reentry into the game. After witnessing these two events, I sure don't want anything like that to happen to me.

Besides, wasn't it Mike who said the first thing he would ask to see if there was a dispute would be the lineup cards?
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 04:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob
Varsity game last week, I was PU. During the game, home HC twice announces subs to me that do not make sense (number of entering player being replaced is not one that I currently have in the game and player reentering into different spot in the batting order.) I notice the inaccuracies and immediately notify HC while we determine the reason for the mistakes (essentially HC not keeping very good track of what's going on). This probably takes 2-3 minutes both times to straighten out. In the back of my mind, I am filing this under preventitive umpiring.

After the game, my partner (very experienced guy, but after watching his work on the bases I was leery of his advice) advised me that what he does when subs are being reported is to just quickly jot down the subs on the back of whatever lineup card is handy, then every couple of innings going back to write numbers in the right spots. I believe he was trying to tell me that I was holding up the game by going to the trouble of recording subs as they occurred. I remember on another thread someone giving a link (I believe cactusumpires) to a powerpoint on keeping a lineup card, and after viewing that I've tried to follow that procedure. I also know after the thread on cleaning the PP that I'm not going to necessarily take advice that is in conflict with what is outlined as umpiring mechanics without running it by you guys first.

This particular topic hits me hard because as I mentioned once before, my daughter is playing high school ball, and there has only been one umpire in her 14 games this season that bothered to record subs. In one early season game, I cringed when there was a question about who was in the game (I swear not one inning after I thought to myself that the PU was asking for trouble) and the PU stopped the game as he took the book for one team over to the other team's dugout to compare what was going on . Ironically, the one umpire that did record subs still dropped the ball when he allowed my daughter a second reentry into the game. After witnessing these two events, I sure don't want anything like that to happen to me.

Besides, wasn't it Mike who said the first thing he would ask to see if there was a dispute would be the lineup cards?

Record EVERY SINGLE substitution, courtesy runner, and conference...EVERY ONE. Do NOT..Do NOT,,,, let anyone tell you any different..If you DONT do it, you WILL be bitten in the butt at some point in time.

Last edited by azbigdawg; Sun May 06, 2007 at 04:29am.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 07:58am
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I agree with Darrell. Listening to your post, it sounds like the umpires in your area need to be schooled in the mundane, yet very important duties of umpiring.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 08:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azbigdawg
Record EVERY SINGLE substitution, courtesy runner, and conference...EVERY ONE. Do NOT..Do NOT,,,, let anyone tell you any different..If you DONT do it, you WILL be bitten in the butt at some point in time.
What Darrel said.
Take the time to do it right - the first time.
I am very particular about who I want to take a piece of my, well nevermind that.
In the one tournament I've worked for Mike, yes, he did say that he'd want to see lineup cards in the event of an on-field conflict he had to get involved in.
Clinics I have been to that had games involved - after game review of lineup cards was a big deal.
You have apparently seen some of the issues that can come up with poor lineup card handling. Add to that the possibility of weather suspending the game and a different umpiring crew having to resume the game - with what as a lineup card?!?
Proper lineup card handling also helps with your appearance to both teams - here's an ump who gets it right.....
As for your game, absolutely you did that correctly. In my high school pre-game get together at the plate, I'll review the lineups, get each coach to agree that names, numbers, and positions are correct. I'll end that part with something like "Please run all changes through me. I will not allow us to have lineup card issues." It sounds very much like that is what you did.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 08:59am
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I agree with the above posters - Your line up card has to be accurate or its gonna get you. Your BU's method is horrible. 3 minutes IS a very long time, so you need to work on that - but you still must keep a line up card accurate.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 09:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
I agree with the above posters - Your line up card has to be accurate or its gonna get you. Your BU's method is horrible. 3 minutes IS a very long time, so you need to work on that - but you still must keep a line up card accurate.
Wade,
I can't tell if 2-3 minutes is too long. Remember, he's got to explain to a coach that some change the coach wants to make is not allowed. Think about what that might take. Some of the high school coaches I see are not that knowledgable about what they can or can't do - and in Blitzing Bob's case, they had to determine where the mistake was, just to be sure that the coach could not make that particular change.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 11:37am
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Ex Accountant

Being An ex accountant I take pride in my line up cards. . My routine changes take less than a minute but just yesterday had the JV coach who twisted her whole line up around. I caught by the new catcher in the cathchers box.....took about 3 minutes....
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 10:50am
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Most of the umpires calling my daughter's school games don't keep the line up. When we have a sub, they say, "tell the other team." And you've seen from my posts the kind of situations it gets them (and us) into. I'm hoping things get better up at the varsity levels.

I can't make general statements like that about the NSA and ASA umpires in this area. Many of them do keep a tight ship on the line ups.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 11:10am
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Both I and my partner keep a good line-up card recording subs, conferences, etc.. It never takes more than 30 seconds to record a change.

The other night however, we had a batter out of order - reported to us by the opposing team. She was reported to come in for #1 on defense, but 3 innings later was batting for #3, while #1 was still in the line-up. The coach explained that she "mistold" us #1 and that she meant #3 - which meant that had already batted for #3 two innings ago.

The coach was really ticked that we did not "catch" this error for 3 full innings. Is it really our place as umpires to make sure that batter is correct each at bat? I wouldn't think that part of an umpire's job is "preventative" in this case. For me, I let them bat, not checking the line-up unless I need to.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 11:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueump
For me, I let them bat, not checking the line-up unless I need to.
That's exactly what I do. The coaches should keep up with the batting order, whether it is for their team or the opposing team.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 11:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueump
The coach was really ticked that we did not "catch" this error for 3 full innings. Is it really our place as umpires to make sure that batter is correct each at bat? .
No.

BOO is an appeal made by the defense. An appeal is a play that may not be ruled on by the umpire until the appeal is made, so even if you noticed it, keep your trap shut!
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 11:57am
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One more question. If the "official scorer" is the home team book, and they have the substitution listed as the coach intended, not as reported to the ump, then do we officially have a BOO?

Is there an official book, as in say basketball or volleyball, or is the umpire's line-up the correct one?
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 12:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueump
One more question. If the "official scorer" is the home team book, and they have the substitution listed as the coach intended, not as reported to the ump, then do we officially have a BOO?

Is there an official book, as in say basketball or volleyball, or is the umpire's line-up the correct one?
The answer is your signature line.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 12:51pm
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substituting for an unreported player

I agree that it is imperative to track ALL changes/conferences/courtesy runners, and at all levels, if for nothing else but to practice mananging the lineup card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob
number of entering player being replaced is not one that I currently have in the game
Since we seem to have a consensus on the OP, I would pose this question that occurs to me from the OP quoted above: When given a re-entry/substitution for a player that was not reported initially, has the unreported player officially been in the game?

I had this occur in a HS game recently. The coach comes to me between innings and states, "re-enter XX for YY". I acknowlege by repeating his statement and then go to my line-up card. I have no record of YY enterring the game. I informed the coach and ... I'll save my conclusiton until we hear from a few posts.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 01:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueump
The coach was really ticked that we did not "catch" this error for 3 full innings. Is it really our place as umpires to make sure that batter is correct each at bat? I wouldn't think that part of an umpire's job is "preventative" in this case. For me, I let them bat, not checking the line-up unless I need to.


How in the world are we suppose to memorize the line up ? Unless it's the pitcher or catcher I generally don't notice which little DD is batting 6 th or wherever.....Coach is ticked LOL LOL

I do a good job on my line up card. It's the coaches job to make sure everyone bats when they are suppose to. My job is fix their sub/BOO mistakes.
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