Chopped Ball

[rwest]

How many of you call a batter out for chopping the ball in SP? Does it matter how hard they chop the ball?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rwest

How many of you call a batter out for chopping the ball in SP? Does it matter how hard they chop the ball?

In my 20 years of softball, I've never seen a chopped ball in SP, or FP for that matter.

Only because I am unsure of the training you've had, I need to ask if you know what a chopped ball is? It is not slapping down, or simply swinging down. As defined in every clinic and school I have attended in all these years, it is defined as the batter literally chopping down as if yielding an axe toward the ground.

Unless you are playing on a paved surface, I don't believe chopping down on a softball is not likely to produce any extraordinary hit or advantage to the offense.

[rwest]

In my 5 years I've seen it 3 times and I've called in once. I consider a chopped ball to be very much what you've described. The bat being swung in a axe like fashion. The bat when it makes contact with the ball is above the ball and is driving the ball straight down into the ground. Hit right up the middle and with enough force it can be effective. Last night I saw it done twice and both times it almost took out the pitcher. And hitting it on a dirt surface can give the offense an advantage. The ball can get a wicked bounce. Its hard to defend. Both times it was hit for a base hit.

[scottk_61]

Originally Posted by rwest

In my 5 years I've seen it 3 times and I've called in once. I consider a chopped ball to be very much what you've described. The bat being swung in a axe like fashion. The bat when it makes contact with the ball is above the ball and is driving the ball straight down into the ground. Hit right up the middle and with enough force it can be effective. Last night I saw it done twice and both times it almost took out the pitcher. And hitting it on a dirt surface can give the offense an advantage. The ball can get a wicked bounce. Its hard to defend. Both times it was hit for a base hit.

In all the years that I did call SP, I saw it a few times.
I only called it once, when the local Moose bragged to the catcher that he was "fixin to chop one down just to prove that he was that good."

I couldn't stand it,
On one like that you just have to stick it in and turn that knife.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rwest

In my 5 years I've seen it 3 times and I've called in once. I consider a chopped ball to be very much what you've described. The bat being swung in a axe like fashion. The bat when it makes contact with the ball is above the ball and is driving the ball straight down into the ground. Hit right up the middle and with enough force it can be effective. Last night I saw it done twice and both times it almost took out the pitcher. And hitting it on a dirt surface can give the offense an advantage. The ball can get a wicked bounce. Its hard to defend. Both times it was hit for a base hit.

I'm sorry, but I would have to see this. How do you chop a ball straight down and it nearly take out a pitcher? I have to think we are talking about two different actions.

When I'm talking chop, I'm talking about the batter bringing the bat directly over his/her head and chopping straight down (perpendicular to the ground) and driving the ball into the ground or plate. In all the games I've worked, I have never seen this done at any level, major to D ball.

[rwest]

A ball hit perpendicular to the ground wont get the bounce I'm talking about and have witnessed. A chop does not require action that is perpendicular. When chopping down a tree, the axe is swung at an angle. The definition of a chopped ball does not require it to be perpendicular. Your description is very similar to what I've seen and I am talking about. The only exception is that the ball is not hit directly ( at a 90 degree angle to the ground) down.

Imagine a pitch that is about 6 feet off of the ground in front of the plate. The batter brings the bat over his/her head and on top of the ball and drives it down at an angle. That is, in my opinion, a chop. In all the clinics and camps I've been to I've never had a a chopped ball described or illustrated. It seems fairly obvious to me what a chop is.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rwest

A ball hit perpendicular to the ground wont get the bounce I'm talking about and have witnessed. A chop does not require action that is perpendicular. When chopping down a tree, the axe is swung at an angle. The definition of a chopped ball does not require it to be perpendicular. Your description is very similar to what I've seen and I am talking about. The only exception is that the ball is not hit directly ( at a 90 degree angle to the ground) down.

Imagine a pitch that is about 6 feet off of the ground in front of the plate. The batter brings the bat over his/her head and on top of the ball and drives it down at an angle. That is, in my opinion, a chop. In all the clinics and camps I've been to I've never had a a chopped ball described or illustrated. It seems fairly obvious to me what a chop is.

Ever chop wood that didn't involve taking down a tree? That log would be horizontal to the ground, unlike a tree which is vertical. BTW, when felling a tree, not all swings are in a downward motion.

From all the clinics and schools I have attended, what you are describing in not considered a "chopped ball" for the purpose of applying 7.6.H.

Now, I will not argue that it may not be the same way you have been instructed. Many of us who have been around a while often get different takes from different instructors. It is also possible that the feeling of the NUS has changed, but if so, I've never seen nor heard of any indication of such.

A slapper (yes, there are slappers in SP) often brings the bat downward at an angle, but you do not call that a chop, do you?

Our differences are based on perception and teachings of a chop. The original issue with a "chop" came from the little ball game. Go here for information:

http://www.answers.com/topic/baltimore-chop

In today's game, with the bats, balls and field conditions, a "chopped" ball would be of little to no use in any of the levels I have worked. BTW, slappers in FP often use this technique to try and bounce a ball over an oncoming F5's head.

I see a chopped ball as no more dangerous to anyone on the field than any other sharply hit ball.

[rwest]

Chopping a log that is horizontal, the stroke would be more perpendicular to the log. But in chopping a tree, the stroke is more at an angle. So we've established that a chop can be perpendicular and can be at an angle. The rule book says nothing about the angle of the swing. Both in my opinion are chops.

As to my instruction on a chopped ball, I've never actually had any. I've been to a camp every year since I started and it has never come up. Now I know that's not as many as you have been to. I'm not bragging about the number I've attended, just saying that I've never had an acutal instruction on this.

So I'll have to take your word that's not what ASA means by chopped, but what I am seeing is a chopped ball. There is no other word I can think of to describe it. They are chopping at the ball. Also, the player I mentioned this to did not disagree with my description of the swing when I referred to it as a chopped ball. He just didn't realize it was illegal. I believe anyone who saw this swing would call it a chopped ball. I think you would call it a chopped ball, but you would probably not call the out because you've been instructed that that is not a chopped ball for purposes of calling the batter out. I don't have a problem with that.

ASA just needs to clarify the action they consider chopping by indicating the angle of the swing if they don't want what I call a chop to be a basis for calling the batter out. They've obviously done that in the clinics/camps you've attended. Also, I've not heard anything to suggest that they've changed their ruling on this, so what you've heard probably is still in effect.

As to the degree of danger this presents to the pitcher as compared to a line drive hit up the middle, the only difference is that there is a wicked bounce that makes it more unpredictable. But I agree, there is not a big difference between this type of hit and a ball hit sharply up the middle.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by rwest

ASA just needs to clarify the action they consider chopping by indicating the angle of the swing if they don't want what I call a chop to be a basis for calling the batter out. They've obviously done that in the clinics/camps you've attended.

May I ask why ASA needs to do this?

I'm really really not trying to be a smart ***, but...there is a definition in the rule book.

Anything further, and you can depend upon your local UIC to give you a ruling if you need to get a ruling. Otherwise, you are expected to use the brain and reasoning ability God gave you.

If you see a chop and know it's a chop, then call it a chop.

[rwest]

If ASA doesn't want what I'm calling a chop to be an out, they need to clarify that. Ok, maybe they don't need to go so far as detailing the degree of angle, but they should clarify that it is not just hitting the ball down. I don't want to call a batter out when ASA says they shouldn't be. The rule book is the first form of communication. It should be used first and foremost to communicate their wishes. Then comes the camps/clinics/local association meetings. If they can communicate it clearly in the rule book without too much effort, then they should.

Just my opinion.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I'm sorry, but I would have to see this. How do you chop a ball straight down and it nearly take out a pitcher? I have to think we are talking about two different actions.

When I'm talking chop, I'm talking about the batter bringing the bat directly over his/her head and chopping straight down (perpendicular to the ground) and driving the ball into the ground or plate. In all the games I've worked, I have never seen this done at any level, major to D ball.

Mike - think like a tennis player hitting an extreme drop shot. Bat about 80 degrees to the pitch, hit with tremendous backspin. And yes - I did it once and got away with it. Mine went about 10 feet and rolled back toward the catcher.

[rwest]

There was no backspin. The ball was driven down hard into the ground within maybe 10 feet of the pitcher and came up sharply close to his head. The pitcher complained about it after the second time. Now, I was the BU so I didn't call the batter out. I thought that was my PU's responsibility. Should a BU call a batter out on a chopped ball?

To diffuse a touchy situation I warned the batter about it. My PU said she thought she should have called the batter out on the first chop but didn't and decided not to on the 2nd chop because she had let it go earlier. Which I don't have a problem with that. The idea being that you don't call something late in a close and heated game that you let go earlier. We should have called it in the first inning, in my opinion.

This was the first game of a double header and I was the PU for the next game. I informed both teams that I would call the chopped ball. When the batter who chopped the ball in the first game came up to bat, he didn't chop it and got a double, if I remember correctly.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by rwest

There was no backspin. The ball was driven down hard into the ground within maybe 10 feet of the pitcher and came up sharply close to his head. The pitcher complained about it after the second time. Now, I was the BU so I didn't call the batter out. I thought that was my PU's responsibility. Should a BU call a batter out on a chopped ball?

To diffuse a touchy situation I warned the batter about it. My PU said she thought she should have called the batter out on the first chop but didn't and decided not to on the 2nd chop because she had let it go earlier. Which I don't have a problem with that. The idea being that you don't call something late in a close and heated game that you let go earlier. We should have called it in the first inning, in my opinion.

This was the first game of a double header and I was the PU for the next game. I informed both teams that I would call the chopped ball. When the batter who chopped the ball in the first game came up to bat, he didn't chop it and got a double, if I remember correctly.

I may be incorrect here ... but it was my impression that the chopping rule was in effect an extention of the no-bunting rule, meant to disallow bunt-like backspin hits like the one I describe above. I don't believe a simple attempt to hit a very hard ground ball should be penalized via this rule.

[rwest]

As I told Mike, I've never actually had any instruction on this that I can remember at any of the camps/clinics that I've attended. No one's ever told me the intent behind this rule. It is mentioned in the same rule that disallows bunting, but I never derived an intent based on that association. Maybe I should have.

[IRISHMAFIA]

2007 ASA Clinic Guide, Chopped Ball:

In Slow Pitch it is the act of the batter chopping down on the ball with a chopping motion to make the ball bounce high in the air. It is illegal. The ball is dead and the batter is out. It is the act of chopping the ball this is illegal; therefore, whether the ball is batted fair or foul does not matter.

Before moving this to a CD, the following sentence was included in previous clinic guides: "like chopping wood".