You make the call

[NCASAUmp]

Here's something that happened to me last year, and I want to see what you all think of it...

In this league, teams have a 2 over-the-fence home run limit. The team on offense has already hit one out. R1 is on third with 2 outs. B2 steps up and hits one over the fence. R1 trots home and touches home plate. As the batter rounds third, the pitcher says something unsportsmanlike that I didn't hear (but my partner heard it). Before the batter touches home plate (still 45 feet or so away), he starts yelling and cursing, heading towards the mound (ignoring home plate) to get ready to fight. I immediately eject him, and my partner ejects the pitcher.

So...

1 - Does R1 count?
2 - Does the home run count towards their limit?
3 - Does B2 count as a run?
4 - How many outs ya got?

I'd just like to see what everyone says to this.

[3afan]

I have no idea since I don't do slow pitch but I'll take a stab at it:

1 - Does R1 count? YES
2 - Does the home run count towards their limit? YES
3 - Does B2 count as a run? YES, UNLESS THE OTHER TEAM APPEALS THAT HE NEVER TOUCHED HOME LATE
4 - How many outs ya got? 2, UNLESS THEY MAKE THE APPEAL IN #3 AND GET THE 3RD OUT THAT WAY

am I close?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by 3afan

I have no idea since I don't do slow pitch but I'll take a stab at it:

1 - Does R1 count? YES
2 - Does the home run count towards their limit? YES
3 - Does B2 count as a run? YES, UNLESS THE OTHER TEAM APPEALS THAT HE NEVER TOUCHED HOME LATE
4 - How many outs ya got? 2, UNLESS THEY MAKE THE APPEAL IN #3 AND GET THE 3RD OUT THAT WAY

am I close?

You're close, but not quite.

Let me clarify one thing (and then clean it up in my OP). He had just rounded 3rd and was about 45 feet away from home.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

You're close, but not quite.

Let me clarify one thing (and then clean it up in my OP). He had just rounded 3rd and was about 45 feet away from home.

Not sure how this makes a difference - he's not abandoned his attempt at home (yet), and even ejected he should be allowed to finish his award.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Not sure how this makes a difference - he's not abandoned his attempt at home (yet), and even ejected he should be allowed to finish his award.

I would rule the batter out since he never touched home plate.
That would be the third out but the run counts.
The home run counts towards the limit.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by 3afan

I have no idea since I don't do slow pitch but I'll take a stab at it:

1 - Does R1 count? YES
2 - Does the home run count towards their limit? YES
3 - Does B2 count as a run? YES, UNLESS THE OTHER TEAM APPEALS THAT HE NEVER TOUCHED HOME LATE
4 - How many outs ya got? 2, UNLESS THEY MAKE THE APPEAL IN #3 AND GET THE 3RD OUT THAT WAY

am I close?

Speaking ASA, yes as the rules read. There has been an interpretation the past few years that would rule out a runner who committed an unsportsmanlike act while runner the bases.

However, that individual is no longer in the umpiring ranks and referencing his interpretations may irritate some present members of the NUS.

Of course, if you are lucky, another member of the offense will come out and try to pull his teammate away from the pitcher and that, my friend, is an out for runner assistance.

BTW, this is the same whether FP or SP save the HR limit.

[greymule]

On an ASA test a few years ago, there was a question that went something like this:

No outs, Abel on 3B, Baker hits a fly ball to deep left. Thinking the ball will be caught, Baker throws his bat in anger. The ball goes over the fence.

Ruling: Baker is out for USC and Abel is returned to 3B.

The question didn't say so specifically, but it seemed to indicate that Abel had not crossed the plate before the USC (the thrown bat came directly after the ball was hit).

(I guess that would count against the team's HR limit, too.)

Naturally, the ruling on this question generated a pile of "what ifs" and inferences. One inference was that if a runner deliberately crashed F2 before touching home plate, even if F2 did not have the ball, the runner would be not only ejected, but also called out for USC, with no run scoring.

Perhaps this, like many test questions, made its way to the casebook. When I get a chance, I'll look for it.

[NCASAUmp]

Well, here's what I had ruled on the field, and why. Let me know what you guys think.

The background on the batter is that he's known for getting/using doctored bats and using them in any level of play (including co-ed recreational). The runner on third counts (of course). As the batter rounded third, the pitcher had said, "you couldn't hit that ball 200 feet without that illegal bat of yours." His response was (as he clearly started towards the mound), "I'll hit that ball 200 feet up your @$$, and take your fat boy (referring to the right-center fielder) with it, too!" I ejected the batter, as I felt that if I did not immediately act to "break things up," a fight would have definitely and inarguably ensued. Being that he was ejected while on the bases, he became the third out. I did not let him score as a runner, as I have trouble letting someone score who just did a gross USC resulting in his ejection. What was I to do? Let them fight it out, then let him touch home plate? Since the rules make no stipulation on whether or not all bases are touched, the home-run counts towards the team's limit.

His team ended up crushing the other team anyway, so whether or not he counts as a run or as an out had no effect on the game. I feel pretty confident in my call, but I sometimes wonder what others would rule if they were in that situation.

Thoughts?

[Ed Maeder]

Did you check the bat?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Well, here's what I had ruled on the field, and why. Let me know what you guys think.
I did not let him score as a runner, as I have trouble letting someone score who just did a gross USC resulting in his ejection.

Can you (or piano, who agreed with this ruling) provide rule support for calling him out?

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Here's something that happened to me last year, and I want to see what you all think of it...

In this league, teams have a 2 over-the-fence home run limit. The team on offense has already hit one out. R1 is on third with 2 outs. B2 steps up and hits one over the fence. R1 trots home and touches home plate. As the batter rounds third, the pitcher says something unsportsmanlike that I didn't hear (but my partner heard it). Before the batter touches home plate (still 45 feet or so away), he starts yelling and cursing, heading towards the mound (ignoring home plate) to get ready to fight. I immediately eject him, and my partner ejects the pitcher.

So...

1 - Does R1 count?
2 - Does the home run count towards their limit?
3 - Does B2 count as a run?
4 - How many outs ya got?

I'd just like to see what everyone says to this.

1 - Does R1 count? Yes - scored before the ejection
2 - Does the home run count towards their limit? Yes- OTFHR was hit before the ejection
3 - Does B2 count as a run? Depends - Does the B/R have to touch all four bases in this league, or is the score automatically awarded when he went yard? (local rules will/can govern this answer)
4 - How many outs ya got? I have 2 outs, but again local rules can govern this play based on ejected players.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by JPRempe

1 - Does R1 count? Yes - scored before the ejection
2 - Does the home run count towards their limit? Yes- OTFHR was hit before the ejection
3 - Does B2 count as a run? Depends - Does the B/R have to touch all four bases in this league, or is the score automatically awarded when he went yard? (local rules will/can govern this answer)
4 - How many outs ya got? I have 2 outs, but again local rules can govern this play based on ejected players.

Sorry I've been silent all day, but I do tech support for a school district with a very hectic schedule from time to time.

To answer JPRempe's question, the league follows ASA very closely and only deviates slightly from the ASA championship rules. There are no local rules regarding home runs, other than the number of allowed OTFHRs.

Regarding the rules, I haven't been able to find anything that specifically covers ejections during a dead ball situation. All I've been able to find have been live ball situations (ie., flagrant collisions with great force). The only parallel I can draw from that situation is that play is in progress, and the player is called out AND ejected. However, it's a reverse logic, as the player was already out, and the ejection is the escalation of the penalty due to its flagrant nature. In my case, the player was ejected first, and then called out.

I hate falling back on the God Rule, but in this case, I believe it was warranted. And given this guy's history in the league, I have no qualms about nailing the guy to the wall for his attitude. Frankly, I would give anything to catch him in the act of using a banned bat, but I doubt that will ever happen. Cheating in co-ed recreational slow pitch softball is an ultimate low for a "sportsman."

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

...Frankly, I would give anything to catch him in the act of using a banned bat, but I doubt that will ever happen. ...

If he is using an altered bat painted to look like a legal bat, look for any evidence it has been repainted. For example, if the paint is chipped anywhere, look for a primer coat underneath. No bat manufacturer uses a primer paint under the finish paint (or so we have been told at our umpire clinics).