You make the call

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

This interpretation was a Henry rule. There was never a specific rule to back up the interpretation, but linking a few rules together, the supposition of an out ruling was accepted.

A couple years ago, I had a proposed change to incorporate this interpretation and it went nowhere except down the drain.

I will try again this year.

Many leagues, including all the ones in my area, have further defined unsportsmanslike conduct to include any profanity loud enough to be heard by spectators...The automatic penalty is an out on the next batter in the teams' lineup and is, if necessary, carried over to the next inning.. Ejection is dependent on the actual language and is usually invoked when the language can be construed as threatening.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Many leagues, including all the ones in my area, have further defined unsportsmanslike conduct to include any profanity loud enough to be heard by spectators...The automatic penalty is an out on the next batter in the teams' lineup and is, if necessary, carried over to the next inning.. Ejection is dependent on the actual language and is usually invoked when the language can be construed as threatening.

We have a similar rule for ASA leagues / teams in MN, called the casual profanity rule. It works well for JO play. I have no idea how well it works for AA slowpitch.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Many leagues, including all the ones in my area, have further defined unsportsmanslike conduct to include any profanity loud enough to be heard by spectators...The automatic penalty is an out on the next batter in the teams' lineup and is, if necessary, carried over to the next inning.. Ejection is dependent on the actual language and is usually invoked when the language can be construed as threatening.

The league in which this game took place also has a strict "no cursing" rule. My "rule of thumb" on it is if I can clearly hear it from more than 25 feet away (or if the scorekeepers behind the backstop can hear it), it was too loud. If a player keeps it under their breath, I don't care - let them blow off a little steam after blowing a play, right? No one's really hurt by it.

This player, on the other hand, was yelling it as loudly as he could, directing it at a player, and getting ready to fight. See ya.

[mcrowder]

Wait until Mike sees this one ... we're going to spin off into a separate topic now.

I'll just leave this one alone, only reminding of the phrase regarding who local rules are made by. This one is among the top of that list.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Wait until Mike sees this one ... we're going to spin off into a separate topic now.

I'll just leave this one alone, only reminding of the phrase regarding who local rules are made by. This one is among the top of that list.

Our local rules are made by the Division of Recreation with the input of players,coaches, and umpires. But at the end of the day the parks belong to the taxpayers and the Division is responsible for making the experience in the park safe and enjoyable for all, not just softball players.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Wait until Mike sees this one ...

Actually, if I remember Mike's comments correctly, they were that there should be no such thing as an ASA profantiy rule, since among other things, it is impossible to define "profanity" in an other than local context. Even regional doesn't always work.

In a strictly local context, however, it can work.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Actually, if I remember Mike's comments correctly, they were that there should be no such thing as an ASA profantiy rule, since among other things, it is impossible to define "profanity" in an other than local context. Even regional doesn't always work.

In a strictly local context, however, it can work.

And even then you have umpires going long for a "gotcha".

Even locally, you will have multple opinions and level of enforcement based on one's rearing, religious background, religious background of those around you, embarassment, knowledge of particular players, etc.

Richmond use to have a profanity rule during their big Memorial Day tournament. Any cursing either added an out to your team or gave your opponent an extra out while batting.

One of my teammates hit a drive up the middle. The pitcher (team from NYC) went up for the ball and muttered, "Oh, Christ!". Before the pitcher's feet hit the ground, the umpire (young female) already gave my team a fourth out for that half inning.

Even though our team benefited from the award, I had no problem telling that umpire she was dead wrong and requested she keeps her religious beliefs in check during the remainder of the game. She was tiffed, but since I didn't curse (or, at least, what she considered cursing), there was nothing for her to do.

Since someone is waiting on this one, I am not the language police. Do not bring your family to a competitive adult game in which you KNOW before hand that profanity may be involved and expect the umpire to play the part of your mother. Do not expect others to completely change their ways to accommodate those not participating.

Will I ask a player to keep the volume down? Yep. Will I remind them that others are in the area and may not appreciate his actions? At times.

Will I start threatening players and coaches with outs, ejections and reports for what some may consider questionable language the is not directed at an umpire or another participant in the game. Nope!

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And even then you have umpires going long for a "gotcha".

But, they can do that with LBR and other things, too.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Richmond use to have a profanity rule during their big Memorial Day tournament. ...The pitcher (team from NYC) went up for the ball and muttered, "Oh, Christ!".

That is not "strictly" local. Having a large regional tournament does make a profanity rule unfair. And, without a generally understood local meaning of "profanity" it can become Carlin-esque in its absurdity.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And even then you have umpires going long for a "gotcha".

Even locally, you will have multple opinions and level of enforcement based on one's rearing, religious background, religious background of those around you, embarassment, knowledge of particular players, etc.

Richmond use to have a profanity rule during their big Memorial Day tournament. Any cursing either added an out to your team or gave your opponent an extra out while batting.

One of my teammates hit a drive up the middle. The pitcher (team from NYC) went up for the ball and muttered, "Oh, Christ!". Before the pitcher's feet hit the ground, the umpire (young female) already gave my team a fourth out for that half inning.

Even though our team benefited from the award, I had no problem telling that umpire she was dead wrong and requested she keeps her religious beliefs in check during the remainder of the game. She was tiffed, but since I didn't curse (or, at least, what she considered cursing), there was nothing for her to do.

Since someone is waiting on this one, I am not the language police. Do not bring your family to a competitive adult game in which you KNOW before hand that profanity may be involved and expect the umpire to play the part of your mother. Do not expect others to completely change their ways to accommodate those not participating.

Will I ask a player to keep the volume down? Yep. Will I remind them that others are in the area and may not appreciate his actions? At times.

Will I start threatening players and coaches with outs, ejections and reports for what some may consider questionable language the is not directed at an umpire or another participant in the game. Nope!

Our leagues all have specific rules defining unsportsmanlike conduct and the use of profanity. They are points of emphasis in all managers and umpires meetings and the league demands that the penalties for violation of the rules be enforced.

The late Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, in writing an opinion in an obscenity case, said " I cannot define obscenity, but I know it when I see it."

Well, it does not take much to recognize abusive, lewd, and profane speech, either. And the burden is not on the users of the park to stay away, it is on the players to refrain from using the language.

The result of these rules has been terriffic. The penalties, which start with outs and, for repeat offenders, run to removal from a team roster, have made the blue language almost non-existent, even in the testosterone laden Men's Open Leagues.

I am not arguing for ASA rules on these matters, since the Leagues can set their own local standards quite well.

And, as an umpire, the league rules are just as important as the ASA Rules, perhaps even more important, since the League is writing my pay check.

The bottom line here is that softball players are tenants in a community park and must abide by the landlord's rules. Players who cannot speak in a civil tongue and umpires who won't enforce the rules will have to go elsewhere.

[NCASAUmp]

I'm usually pretty reasonable about the "no profanity" rule. I'm not a religious person at all, but I live in a very religious area. As such, I do try to find a balance between the community expectations and what is reasonable to allow as an umpire. However, one thing that was made very clear once I moved to the area and started calling SB here was that these are considered "community parks," a place where families should be able to bring their young kids without having to cover their ears or say "earmuffs" when a batter pops up.

Frankly, I'm all for some highly competitive ball and great athleticism. When I used to play, I was VERY competitive. However, regardless of what rules were in place, I always found a way to keep from being vulgar, however you might define it. Let out a growl, slap your hand, and move on. Besides, it's rec ball, right? Why do players *need* to cuss during rec ball? If you pop up, shrug it off, and do better next time.

Tourneys are different, and if I call any, I will let a bit more slide. I just calmly say, "hey... keep it clean, player." 99% of the time, they acknowledge it was wrong, apologize, and keep from doing it again. No big deal to me, and no big deal for them.

[IRISHMAFIA]

The point is what may be profanity to you, may not be profanity to the person standing next to you.

What is outrageous in your mind, may be standard, everyday vocabulary. Like it or not, this country is still full of purists who place a value on words. I place no value on words. Words are nothing more than a method of communication.

Somewhere along the way, the self-proclaimed morally-superior individuals needed to sell people on damnation and part of that is the fear of what they proclaim to be the beliefs of a Supreme Being. Of course, these are the same people that relate financial donations to salvation. For some reason, a group of words, a specific order of letters, were deemed "obscene". The entire thought of this scam being perpetrated upon those who apparently are not to smart (which is a fair amount of people in this country) is obscene in itself.

BTW, if you honestly believe in the injection of one's moral beliefs into the game of softball, stay away from the teams from The Bahamas or Jamaica just to mention two. Their idea of profanity, if there is one, will demoralize you in a heartbeat.

You now know why my name was mentioned when this hit thread hit the board.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Somewhere along the way, the self-proclaimed morally-superior individuals needed to sell people on ... a specific order of letters, {are} deemed "obscene"...

You mean like "ho"?

[CecilOne]

Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
And even then you have umpires going long for a "gotcha".

Originally Posted by Dakota

But, they can do that with LBR and other things, too.

Not on my watch!

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The point is what may be profanity to you, may not be profanity to the person standing next to you.

What is outrageous in your mind, may be standard, everyday vocabulary. Like it or not, this country is still full of purists who place a value on words. I place no value on words. Words are nothing more than a method of communication.

Somewhere along the way, the self-proclaimed morally-superior individuals needed to sell people on damnation and part of that is the fear of what they proclaim to be the beliefs of a Supreme Being. Of course, these are the same people that relate financial donations to salvation. For some reason, a group of words, a specific order of letters, were deemed "obscene". The entire thought of this scam being perpetrated upon those who apparently are not to smart (which is a fair amount of people in this country) is obscene in itself.

BTW, if you honestly believe in the injection of one's moral beliefs into the game of softball, stay away from the teams from The Bahamas or Jamaica just to mention two. Their idea of profanity, if there is one, will demoralize you in a heartbeat.

You now know why my name was mentioned when this hit thread hit the board.

None of the rules I mentioned were based on anyone's "moral beliefs" or religion.

They were adopted with input and suggestions by League officials, players and umpires and are concerned with good manners and respect for others, not on who anyone prays or does not pray to.

These are secular rules.

And, they are rules just the same as rules defining what constitutes interference, the dimensions of the batter's box, or the strike zone.

Any umpire who has a problem with enforcing the rules of the league and the game will have a problem getting assignments here.

[Dakota]

Jim, does your league publish a list of banned words, or is it left to umpire judgment to define "profanity"?

If it is left to umpire judgment, you may find an umpire or two who would consider saying "Christ" as cursing based on their religious sensibilities. That was Mike's point.

And, as the Don Imus ruckus points out, feigned offense can also be an issue.