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Old Thu Apr 21, 2005, 12:13pm
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This one was presented to me by an umpire working a Middle School game using Federation Rules.

R1 on first, steals second as B1 takes her second strike, throw from F2 gets past F4 and R1 heads to third. PU moves up the line and has a 'safe' call at 3rd. PU goes back to the plate, next pitch is strike 3. Batter says that's her first strike, that she just came to the plate. Turns out B1 thought she already had 3 strikes and went to dugout during the steal. What do you have?
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2005, 12:32pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by varefump
This one was presented to me by an umpire working a Middle School game using Federation Rules.

R1 on first, steals second as B1 takes her second strike, throw from F2 gets past F4 and R1 heads to third. PU moves up the line and has a 'safe' call at 3rd. PU goes back to the plate, next pitch is strike 3. Batter says that's her first strike, that she just came to the plate. Turns out B1 thought she already had 3 strikes and went to dugout during the steal. What do you have?
A fustercluck!
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2005, 12:35pm
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How about B1 is now out on strikes. B2 stays in the box and begins her at-bat with a new count.

No books handy for rule references, but I'm thinking a batting out of order application here. If an incorrect batter is discovered during her time at bat, the proper batter is brought to the plate and assumes the count.

B2 was out of order as B1's at bat was not finished. When strike three was called, B2 was discovered. B1 would be brought back and assume a count of x-3, resulting in a strike out.

As always, I'm open for other interpretations....
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2005, 12:44pm
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I think technically by the book, you have nothing, B2 is out, Bring B3 to the plate. Then if defense challenges for BOO, B1 is out for not batting in order - B2 STILL out for striking out.

However, that said, at middle school or any youth ball, I'm probably going to call B1 out on the strikeout and B2 up with a clean count, and hope defensive coach doesn't protest.

I'm hoping Dr. Rowe will enlighten us with an alternate, supportable resolution from the book that allows for only 1 out here.
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2005, 01:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mcrowder
I think technically by the book, you have nothing, B2 is out, Bring B3 to the plate. Then if defense challenges for BOO, B1 is out for not batting in order - B2 STILL out for striking out.
NFHS rules.

The NFHS rule book is at bit vague on this point. Here is the NFHS wording:
Quote:
The umpire shall declare the batter who should have batted out (not the improper batter). Any other outs on the play stand....
It is interesting to compare this with the 2003 wording:
Quote:
Any outs on the play stand. The umpire shall declare the batter who should have batted out....
I don't have any comments that may have accompanied this change, but I would assume the reason for the change was to NOT have any out made on the improper batter to stand.

OTOH, as WMB pointed out previously, the NFHS Umpire Exam had a question on BOO where the "correct" answer (according to the answer key) was that the out on the improper batter DID stand.

Nonetheless, I believe the proper ruling for NFHS is B2 out on strike three, unless appealed, in which case it is B1 out for not batting in order (actually not completing her time at bat in order), and B2 up to bat.

So basically the defense has the choice of whether they want to skip B2 (don't appeal) or pitch to B2 (appeal).
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2005, 01:55pm
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Wink Announce B & S

We were trained to always announce the balls and strikes count before the next pitch when the count had either 2 strikes or three balls.

1. I agree with IrishMafia (above)

2. Better practice of announcing the count would have prevented this.

3. No matter what, these strange things will happen anyway. (That's what keeps us on our toes).

TJ
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2005, 01:58pm
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IT'S A MIDDLE SCHOOL GAME, FOR CRIPES SAKE!

Call the girl back out of the dugout with a 2 strike count. Send B2 back to the on-deck circle.

Technically by the rule? NO, but in the spirit of play lets just get the batter back up and go on with the game.

WMB
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2005, 02:07pm
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That solution would never have occurred to me, as you're penalizing the pitcher, who threw 3 strikes, due to the offense's mistake. You have to have a strikeout here.
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2005, 02:12pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by WestMichBlue
IT'S A MIDDLE SCHOOL GAME, FOR CRIPES SAKE!

Call the girl back out of the dugout with a 2 strike count. Send B2 back to the on-deck circle.

Technically by the rule? NO, but in the spirit of play lets just get the batter back up and go on with the game.

WMB
That's the easy way out, WMB. And, also no fun for us here on an umpire board!

So, assume this was the varsity state championship game.

What then?
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2005, 03:56pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dakota
Quote:
Originally posted by WestMichBlue
IT'S A MIDDLE SCHOOL GAME, FOR CRIPES SAKE!

Call the girl back out of the dugout with a 2 strike count. Send B2 back to the on-deck circle.

Technically by the rule? NO, but in the spirit of play lets just get the batter back up and go on with the game.

WMB
That's the easy way out, WMB. And, also no fun for us here on an umpire board!

So, assume this was the varsity state championship game.

What then?
Enjoy the rest of the game....because it's probably the last state championship game you'll ever do!

I can see this situation happening in a single umpire middle school game, but in a state championship game, the PU would not have to leave the plate area to make this call and would probably notice (I would hope) the batters switching.

I still stand by my solution above...haven't been convinced otherwise yet.
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2005, 05:15pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy
Enjoy the rest of the game....because it's probably the last state championship game you'll ever do!

I can see this situation happening in a single umpire middle school game, but in a state championship game, the PU would not have to leave the plate area to make this call and would probably notice (I would hope) the batters switching.
Sure, but just trying to get to the actual ruling that would apply.
Quote:
Originally posted by Andy
I still stand by my solution above...haven't been convinced otherwise yet.
The problem with your solution is B2 has completed B1's time at bat; you can't bring a batter up with a count of x-3. So, if you are going to recognize the strike, it is B2 who has struck out, batting in place of B1.
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2005, 05:19pm
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Of course, if you are going to take the "aw shucks, it's only Middle School" approach, then bring B1 back to finish with the x-2 at bat, and when her at bat is done, bring B2 back with an x-1 count. After all, MS probably does not recognize protests anyway, so what the hey!
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2005, 09:13pm
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B1 is out she went to the dugout, 0-1 count on B2. R1 on 3rd.

I'm sure if this is wrong you all will let me know.
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Old Thu Apr 21, 2005, 09:40pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rachel
B1 is out she went to the dugout, 0-1 count on B2. R1 on 3rd.

I'm sure if this is wrong you all will let me know.
Why would she be out for entering the dugout?

She isn't an active runner.

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Old Thu Apr 21, 2005, 10:19pm
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Lightbulb NCAA note.

Quote:
Originally posted by Andy
How about B1 is now out on strikes. B2 stays in the box and begins her at-bat with a new count.

No books handy for rule references, but I'm thinking a batting out of order application here. If an incorrect batter is discovered during her time at bat, the proper batter is brought to the plate and assumes the count.

B2 was out of order as B1's at bat was not finished. When strike three was called, B2 was discovered. B1 would be brought back and assume a count of x-3, resulting in a strike out.

As always, I'm open for other interpretations....
Andy,
NCAA 8-4 Note 1 seems to have addressed the problem and it feels good, too!

It starts: If the error is reported after the incorrect batter has completed her time at bat and before a legal or illegal pitch delivered ....[then a protest may be made for failure to bat in order]. Same rule so far.

Now stay with me, here...

In the original sitch, a pitch was delivered to B2, so "failing to bat in order" has become moot for B1.

Then, in the NCAA book, there appears this
  • Note: 1. Players who have not batted and who have not been called out have lost their turn at bat until reached again in the regular order.

    Using the original sitch and this interpretation, B1 (with two strikes) would merely be a footnote in the scorebook. [Neither out, nor batting] B2 has one strike and the game proceeds.

    That can work for me.

    mick








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