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Old Wed Apr 18, 2007, 11:52am
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HS game situation last night

Last night....HS Varsity game. I'm PU.

Top of the 6th, R1 on third, R2 on second, 1 out. Score is V-5, H-2.
B3 hits fly ball to left field, ball is caught for out #2.
R1 and R2 tag up and attempt to advance on the catch.

Throw from F7 is high and away from F2, as F2 reaches to try to catch the throw, R1 slides into home and contacts F2s ankle, my left arm goes out for OBS, but that does not figure into the play. R1 scores, F2 goes down with an injured ankle. The ball is rolling around near the backstop, I look to third and see R2 being waved home. F1 retrieves ball and starts running toward the plate to tag R2. F2 is still laying on the ground in the vicinity of home plate, R1 is tangled with F2 and is still laying on the ground partially covering home. I see F1 jump over her F2 and tag R2 before she gets to the plate. With all of the other players in the area on the ground, I am looking for any OBS or INT violations, but don't see anything that can be called. After the out is called, R1, still on the ground, rolls over and makes an agressive move to push F2 away, she did not actually push her, but would have, given the opportunity. I stepped in between the players immediately to stop that from escalating.

After I call the out, the head coach from the offensive team (she is coaching at first base) comes down to the plate and starts telling me that F1 dropped the ball during the tag and another defensive player picked it up. I did not see that at all, probably because my focus went to R1 and her aggressive move toward F2. I tell the coach that I did not see the ball droppped and I have an out. She tells me the same thing again, even says "your partner saw it". She never once asked me to get help, which I would have done immediately.

While this is going on, the defensive coach comes out to check on his catcher who is still down. The defense leaves the field, believing that they have made the required three outs to end the inning. F2 has hurt her ankle pretty badly so it takes about ten minutes to get her taken care of and helped off of the field. During this time, my partner and I are standing away from the injured player comparing notes and making sure we are on the same page with the game situation. I hear the coach from the offensive team ask one of the coaches from the defensive team if the ball was dropped at the plate and the defensive coach answer that yes, the ball was dropped.

Here's the fun part......as F2 is being helped off of the field, the offensive coach comes up to me and says....."I think the ball was dropped at the plate, can you check with your partner to see if he saw that?" I ask my partner and he confirms that the ball was dropped. I reverse my out call and score the second run. We now have two outs, no runners on base. I inform the defensive coach of my ruling and he asks me "are you going to allow that appeal this late?" I tell him that we have not yet had another pitch, so I will allow the request for help. He says "Ok, lets just play".

Questions - was the initial conversation with the coach appropriate? in other words, should I have gone to my partner for help on the dropped ball with out the coach directly asking me to?

Once the coach finally did ask the right question (check with your partner, please) was it appropriate to do so after the long delay?
In our post game, my partner said that since the defense left the field, I should not have requested help that late. My response was that it was not an appeal play and that condition would not apply.

I'm interested in your opinions and comments on not only the specific questions but on the entire play as well.
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Old Wed Apr 18, 2007, 12:28pm
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"Even your partner saw it" coupled with me not being sure I saw the whole thing would have been enough for me to ask for help on my own. They don't have to use magic words to get you to ask - if they bring something to your attention that you realize you MAY have made a mistake on, you should ask your partner what he/she saw.

The rest, sounds like you handled ok - there's no statute of limitations on requests for help (which is NOT the same as an appeal, by the way), unless a pitch has been thrown.

PS - Are you SURE F2 didn't OBS R2 at all?
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Old Wed Apr 18, 2007, 12:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
"Even your partner saw it" coupled with me not being sure I saw the whole thing would have been enough for me to ask for help on my own. They don't have to use magic words to get you to ask - if they bring something to your attention that you realize you MAY have made a mistake on, you should ask your partner what he/she saw.

The rest, sounds like you handled ok - there's no statute of limitations on requests for help (which is NOT the same as an appeal, by the way), unless a pitch has been thrown.

PS - Are you SURE F2 didn't OBS R2 at all?
Like mcrowder, I would have gone to my partner when the coach implied that I might not have seen everything there was to see. I believe our job is get the call right -- not make the coach ask her question in grammatically correct English. But overall, it sounds like you got the call correct (as long as the injured F2 didn't obstruct R2) and managed the situation pretty well.
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Old Wed Apr 18, 2007, 12:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy
I tell the coach that I did not see the ball droppped and I have an out. She tells me the same thing again, even says "your partner saw it".
How did she even know that your partner saw it? Did she ask him? Did he offer his opinion to her? If I were the PU, I'd be upset with my partner's lack of a poker face, as that's not his call.

Or maybe she made it up to get you to ask him (which is the more plausible possibility).
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Old Wed Apr 18, 2007, 05:49pm
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Andy, I'm pretty much with the others. I think you had enough information from the coach to infer that there was a piece of the play possibly missing. I wouldn't wait for the exact question; if there is any legitimate possibility, I am asking right then.

Also, as others have stated, "asking for help" is not an appeal, and is not subject to "the defense left the field". In fact, it would certainly behoove the defense to RUN off the field when they get a break on a call. The defense leaving the field denotes that the defense has relinquished their right to appeal for relief, not the offense.

As far as I am concerned, asking for help ends when another pitch has been thrown. Then, we aren't going back.
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Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 03:11am
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That would definitely be enough for me to go to my partner. Poker face, premonition or whatever else, the coach was wanting you to get help, and going to your partner is fine. And if it's 10 minutes later or one hour later, as long as there is no succeeding pitch, it's fine.

When I read this OP I thought of another very infamous play up herein a 12U Regional a few years ago. Most of the SeaTac umpires who monitor this board (there are many who don't post) know which play I'm talking about...and that was 10 minutes later. So if you're looking, there is a precent...
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Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 03:44am
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Andy,
Yeah, count me in with those who would have cheecked with my partner earlier. As has been said, you had enough information to think there may be a piece of critical information missing. And no, it was not too late to check.
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Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 05:04am
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Agree with everyone that asking one's partner would have been the way to go. I have a habit, whether right or wrong, of vocalizing to my partner "The ball's out!" on a tag play if I see it loose. It worked last night. I was PU, R1 steals for 2nd, good throw from F2 sweep tag by F6, looked like out. Ball came out on tag and ended up under R1. My BU had that Ring 'er up look, I yelled it out, he waited, saw the ball free and signaled safe. Granted, he probably wouldn't have made any call without seeing the ball in glove, but after the play he gave me a look of "Thanks" on his way back to first base.
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Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 09:09am
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Why would you vocalize that the ball was out if it wasn't your call and you had not been asked for help yet by your partner. Doesn't sound like a very good way of communicating what you may have seen.
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Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 11:26am
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Question

Me too, on the above answers, but a question.

If "F2 is still laying on the ground in the vicinity of home plate, R1 is tangled with F2 and is still laying on the ground partially covering home" resulted in R2 being impeded going to the plate:

a) Is "vicinity of home plate" clearly out of R2 path?
b) If the R2 path is blocked by R1, is it because R1 is restrained by F2?
c) If yes to b, should OBS be considered caused by F2?
d) Does F2's positon being injury caused negate anything else?

Aside from this specific case, any general concept comments?
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Old Thu Apr 19, 2007, 11:27am
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Maeder
Why would you vocalize that the ball was out if it wasn't your call and you had not been asked for help yet by your partner. Doesn't sound like a very good way of communicating what you may have seen.
This might need a separate topic.
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Old Sat Apr 21, 2007, 12:42am
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I understand everything so far but what was F2 doing to warrant an OBS call. Why even raise your wing?
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Old Sat Apr 21, 2007, 07:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcblue13
I understand everything so far but what was F2 doing to warrant an OBS call. Why even raise your wing?
TC,
Go back and read Andy's sequence. F2 did not have the ball in her possession when the slide & contact was made - if I'm reading this correctly. That is obstruction and good umps will call that every time.
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Old Sat Apr 21, 2007, 12:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M
TC,
Go back and read Andy's sequence. F2 did not have the ball in her possession when the slide & contact was made - if I'm reading this correctly. That is obstruction and good umps will call that every time.
If F2 is blocking the plate (w/out the ball) and/or has caused R1 to alter her approach to the plate, I can see and would call OBS. The OP did not make that clear. Just because there is contact does not necessarily mean that there is OBS
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Old Sat Apr 21, 2007, 01:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcblue13
If F2 is blocking the plate (w/out the ball) and/or has caused R1 to alter her approach to the plate, I can see and would call OBS. The OP did not make that clear. Just because there is contact does not necessarily mean that there is OBS
Unless it was intentional contact by the runner, and the fielder doesn't have the ball, I don't see anything, but OBS.
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