Missed base appeals

[bigsig]

I'm trying to follow this but still need some help from you guys. I understand having to touch the bases again in reverse order to get back to first. Now, when the throw went into DBA the runner was between 1B and 2B when the throw was released. You awarded him 2 bases from the release of the throw, putting him on 3B. I agree, but By doing so, aren't you ruling that he only had 1B prior to the release? And if so, how can he be out on a 2B appeal if you have already ruled that he never reached to 2B?

[greymule]

And if so, how can he be out on a 2B appeal if you have already ruled that he never reached to 2B?

He did reach 2B—even though he missed it—and by retreating he placed himself between 1B and 2B, still with liability to be put out for missing 2B.

Missing 2B and never reaching 2B—and retreating toward 1B after missing (or touching) 2B—are different things.

For the purposes of awarding bases, the runner is considered to have touched the bases he passed. For example: Abel on 1B runs on Baker's hit. Abel misses 2B and is on his way to 3B when F9 throws the ball into DBT. Abel was between 2B and 3B when F9 released the throw, so you award him home. You don't say, "Well, Abel never touched 2B, so I'll consider him as being between 1B and 2B and make the award from 1B."

The rule book is clear that passing a base is the same as touching it, except that the runner is liable to be put out on appeal. After all, the rule book says that a run scores when a runner touches 1B, 2B, 3B, and home. If a batter circles the bases on a hit but misses 2B, we score the run anyway unless the defense appeals the miss. We don't say, "Even though there was no appeal, the runner missed 2B and therefore did not fulfill the requirements for scoring a run."

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by bigsig

I'm trying to follow this but still need some help from you guys. I understand having to touch the bases again in reverse order to get back to first. Now, when the throw went into DBA the runner was between 1B and 2B when the throw was released. You awarded him 2 bases from the release of the throw, putting him on 3B. I agree, but By doing so, aren't you ruling that he only had 1B prior to the release? And if so, how can he be out on a 2B appeal if you have already ruled that he never reached to 2B?

When the runner returned he gave up on second base and reinstated a force out because the batter/runner is occupying first. The runner now can be put out by simply touching second base. Since, instead, the ball was overthrown into a dead ball area the runner has only legally attained first base and the award of two bases sends him to third. That is, until he was successfully put out on appeal for missing second base.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Since, instead, the ball was overthrown into a dead ball area the runner has only legally attained first base and the award of two bases sends him to third. ...

Speaking ASA, this is incorrect. The 2 base award is based on the position of the runners at the time of the throw, not the "legally attained" base.

ASA 8-Section 5. RUNNERS ARE ENTITLED TO ADVANCE WITHOUT LIABILITY TO BE PUT OUT.

G. When the ball is live and is overthrown or is blocked:
EFFECT: All runners shall be awarded two bases. The award shall be governed by the position of the runners when the ball left the fielder’s hand. Runners must return to touch a base missed or a base left too soon.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Speaking ASA, this is incorrect. The 2 base award is based on the position of the runners at the time of the throw, not the "legally attained" base.

You are correct and I apologize for making this thread even more complicated.

I was trying, albeit feebly, to help Bigsig understand missing second base(or touching second base) had no bearing on the award, since the runner was between first and second at the time of the throw.

I was trying to help

[SRW]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

You are correct and I apologize for making this thread even more complicated.

I was trying, albeit feebly, to help Bigsig understand missing second base(or touching second base) had no bearing on the award, since the runner was between first and second at the time of the throw.

I was trying to help

Holy ****, JP has admitted he's wrong.

*pumps his fist in celebration*

[bigsig]

I was having trouble understanding the appeal.
Thanks to all for your help!

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Speaking ASA, this is incorrect. The 2 base award is based on the position of the runners at the time of the throw, not the "legally attained" base.

Okay.

The thread has had several left and right turns.

My last answer was a feeble attempt to answer BIGSIG on why the touch or no touch of second base was immaterial. Your answer is much clearer.

And thanks to the input of all I would answer your original questions this way, based on the rule book.

a) R1 misses 2B on the advance but touches on the return-No potential successful appeal
b) R1 misses 2B in both directions-one potential successful appeal
c) R1 touches 2B on the advance but misses on the return-one potential sucessful appea

Thanks for the challenge