Rundown and OBS

[DaveASA/FED]

Ok I stole this form the NFHS website. I would like to know what you all think, for FED and ASA.

Runner between 2nd and 3rd in rundown, get obstructed returning to 2nd, ball goes into outfield now two cases

1) runner gets up and runs to 3rd base
2) runner touches 2nd then attempts for 3rd

Both cases the runner is thrown out in a close play at 3rd.

What do you call??

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Ok I stole this form the NFHS website. I would like to know what you all think, for FED and ASA.

Runner between 2nd and 3rd in rundown, get obstructed returning to 2nd, ball goes into outfield now two cases

1) runner gets up and runs to 3rd base
2) runner touches 2nd then attempts for 3rd

Both cases the runner is thrown out in a close play at 3rd.

What do you call??

This is really a HTBT kind of call. It would depend on what base I felt that the runner would/could have attained had the obstruction not occurred.

[DaveASA/FED]

What I am really looking for is whether you consider the two cases differently. The conversation I was hoping for was whether the OBS is over once the runner achieves the base they would have reached had there been no OBS. So let's say she was sliding into 2nd and OBS happened, so IMO she would have gotten 2nd, now the ball is overthrown and she tries for 3rd. That is the scene the OP is talking about. So the real question is IF the runner touches 2nd (the base IMO she would have achieved had there been on OBS) has she removed her protection and is now liable to be put out at 3rd?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

What I am really looking for is whether you consider the two cases differently. The conversation I was hoping for was whether the OBS is over once the runner achieves the base they would have reached had there been no OBS. So let's say she was sliding into 2nd and OBS happened, so IMO she would have gotten 2nd, now the ball is overthrown and she tries for 3rd. That is the scene the OP is talking about. So the real question is IF the runner touches 2nd (the base IMO she would have achieved had there been on OBS) has she removed her protection and is now liable to be put out at 3rd?

I don't. We should not care what she does after the OBS call - you decide right then and there what the award will be.

And no, she has not removed her protection from being put out between the bases where she was obstructed, if she touches the base you were going to award. She's still protected between 2nd and 3rd in this case even if she touches 2nd and your award was 2nd.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

So the real question is IF the runner touches 2nd (the base IMO she would have achieved had there been on OBS) has she removed her protection and is now liable to be put out at 3rd?

No. As a general rule she cannot be put out between the two bases where the obstruction occurred. If you feel that she would have only achieved a return to second had the OBS not happened, then when she is put out, call dead ball and return her to that base.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Ok I stole this form the NFHS website. I would like to know what you all think, for FED and ASA.

Runner between 2nd and 3rd in rundown, get obstructed returning to 2nd, ball goes into outfield now two cases

1) runner gets up and runs to 3rd base
2) runner touches 2nd then attempts for 3rd

Both cases the runner is thrown out in a close play at 3rd.

What do you call??

This is a no brainer for ASA, and I assume the same for Federation.

The runner was obstructed and would have reached 2B safely had the OBS not occurred. That is the award base.

Any subsequent action short of INT, missing a base or USC is irrelevant to the runner being protected between the two bases where she was obstructed.

[DaveASA/FED]

My question is when does the OBS protection stop? Once the play is over? Or once the player has reached the base they would have made had there been no OBS? I remember reading almost those exact words in the book, sorry at work and book at home I will look up later.

So if BR hits a ball to shallow center field and rounds 1st into stupid F3 I have OBS, F8 throws back to F6 so R1 (former BR) retreats to 1st base (the base she would have gotten with no OBS) then there is an overthrow to F1 and R1 takes off for 2nd, you are going to protect R1 between 1st and 2nd? If thrown out put her back on 1st?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

My question is when does the OBS protection stop? Once the play is over? Or once the player has reached the base they would have made had there been no OBS? I remember reading almost those exact words in the book, sorry at work and book at home I will look up later.

So if BR hits a ball to shallow center field and rounds 1st into stupid F3 I have OBS, F8 throws back to F6 so R1 (former BR) retreats to 1st base (the base she would have gotten with no OBS) then there is an overthrow to F1 and R1 takes off for 2nd, you are going to protect R1 between 1st and 2nd? If thrown out put her back on 1st?

For me, there's really no hard-and-fast rule when it comes to obstruction (even though the rule is fairly well explained). The obstruction is a well-defined term, and easy to identify in most cases.

However, the award is still a judgment call. On tests and forums, it's easy for someone to say one answer is the right one. But on the ballfield, each runner is different. Two runners can hit the same ball to the same spot with the same speed, yet one ends up with a single while the other stretches it into a triple.

I see where you're going with this question, and I think it's great for discussion! Duh, that's why we're here. As such, my opinion is that if she successfully tagged second and tries to go to third, she's out. If she hadn't gone back to second, popped up and went for third, I *might* give her third. Depends on how close the play was.

Thoughts, anyone?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

My question is when does the OBS protection stop? Once the play is over? Or once the player has reached the base they would have made had there been no OBS? I remember reading almost those exact words in the book, sorry at work and book at home I will look up later.

So if BR hits a ball to shallow center field and rounds 1st into stupid F3 I have OBS, F8 throws back to F6 so R1 (former BR) retreats to 1st base (the base she would have gotten with no OBS) then there is an overthrow to F1 and R1 takes off for 2nd, you are going to protect R1 between 1st and 2nd? If thrown out put her back on 1st?

Yes. By definition (with exceptions of INT, passing, missing a base), any obstructed runner cannot be put out between the bases where she was obstructed. The case you listed is easy - protection is not over.

A more interesting case is - R1 left early on a pop, is obstructed by SS, and judged as protected to third base by BU. Ball is caught, runner returns to first, ball thrown away (not out of play), runner touches, runs to 2nd, and is then thrown out at third base.

By rule, this runner is still protected both TO third and between 2nd and 3rd. Logic tells most of us she should not still be protected, but by rule, she is.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

As such, my opinion is that if she successfully tagged second and tries to go to third, she's out. If she hadn't gone back to second, popped up and went for third, I *might* give her third. Depends on how close the play was.

Thoughts, anyone?

Then would you please change your screen name, because, speaking ASA, you are wrong on a couple different levels.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Then would you please change your screen name, because, speaking ASA, you are wrong on a couple different levels.

Rather than speak condescendingly, care to explain how? This is a forum, after all.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Rather than speak condescendingly, care to explain how? This is a forum, after all.

Most has been stated already, but let's make this clear. There are two forms of protection under obstruction; the base they would have reached, AND the fact that they cannot be out between the two bases wherein they are obstructed. Both forms exist, and are not exclusive of the other. With certain exceptions (which I will note in a moment), the runner cannot be out until BOTH protections have been exhausted. So, in this play, the runner cannot be out until and unless she passes third base (unless you judge she would have reached home on the original play, disregarding any errors or misplays made AFTER the obstruction.

The exceptions are that the runner must still touch all bases, not have left a base early on a fly, not pass another runner, and not commit an act of interference; in other words, follow all baserunning rules. The only two ways the protection can end is if 1) s/he has reached the base you would have awarded AND there is a play made on ANOTHER runner, and then a subsequent new play made on the obstructed runner, or 2) play has ended, the ball is in the circle and the lookback rule now applies, or you have called time, or a dead ball.

This is true in ASA, NCAA and NFHS; it is also true of every other form of softball that I have ever heard of, with the possible exception of the "interim play made on another baserunner" exception, which is relatively new.

[NCASAUmp]

Hey, Steve,

I appreciate your explanation of your reasoning behind this. I can't say I agree with you fully, as I believe that in the case where the runner goes to second and THEN goes to third, I believe she went beyond the base to which she was protected. Thus, since she, in my judgment, went beyond the base I feel she should have reached had there been no obstruction, she'd be out. Since our games were called tonight (WOW is it windy out there!), I'll look further into this scenario.

Like I (and others) said earlier, this appears to be one of those cases where you had to be there, and two different answers do not necessarily have to be right or wrong. Sometimes, it still boils down to judgment, and whether you, as the umpire, judge that she would have made it to the base safely, minus the obstruction.

You may be right, I may be wrong, or even vice-versa. I still appreciate your excellent explanation, Steve.

[DaveASA/FED]

Thanks Steve for the response, I will review that when I get the book in my hands later. I was thinking of the reaching the base, not that BOTH had to be done (also still can't be between the two bases) for the protection to be gone.

That is what is great about these forums it reminds you to RTFRB
Read The FULL Rule Book

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

You may be right, I may be wrong, or even vice-versa.

Speaking ASA, you are most definitely wrong. The protection of a runner between the bases where the runner was obstructed is nearly absolute. Apart from baserunning infractions (already mentioned), the only exception is the intervening play on another runner.

Quoting from ASA RS36:

When an obstructed runner safely obtains the base they would have been awarded, in the umpire’s judgment, had obstruction not occurred and there is a subsequent play on a different runner, the obstructed runner is no longer protected between the two bases where they were obstructed. That runner may now be put out anywhere on the base paths.

Notice these things about this statement:

1) The obstructed runner has safely obtained the base they would have been awarded, and

2) The runner is STILL protected between the bases where the OBS occurred.

How do you know #2? Because the statement quoted above gives the exception when the obstructed runner is no longer protected between the two bases - when the runner achieved the base she would have reached AND there has been an intervening play on ANOTHER runner.

You need to learn this principle and stop arguing against it. An obstructed runner cannot be put out between the bases where she was obstructed. Achieving the base she would have achieved had there been no obstruction DOES NOT remove this protection.