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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 26, 2007, 11:18am
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Two Umpires System question

Need some help about this.
I am aware of what the Manual says.
Now someone is saying it could be changed...

No runners on base. B1 hits a short ground ball to right centerfield.
BU moves to foul territory, ready to judge the play at first base.
The subsequent throw is not correct and the runner go on towards second base.

Wich umpire will cover the play at second?
And what if in case the runner will go over third and home plate?

Thanks everybody (if possible pls cite ASA or other ruleset...)

Ciao
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Old Mon Feb 26, 2007, 12:18pm
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Under the 2 man system, the base umpire is responsible for the batter-runner all the way to 3rd base (page 245).

On all balls hit through the infield the mechanic I use is to button hook into the infield and observe the BR touch 1st base. This puts you in a good position to watch if there is a throw from the outfield to first or to cut across the infield as the BR continues running to 2nd and/or 3rd.

Hope this helps.
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Old Mon Feb 26, 2007, 12:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonella
Need some help about this.
I am aware of what the Manual says.
Now someone is saying it could be changed...

No runners on base. B1 hits a short ground ball to right centerfield.
BU moves to foul territory, ready to judge the play at first base.
The subsequent throw is not correct and the runner go on towards second base.

Wich umpire will cover the play at second?
And what if in case the runner will go over third and home plate?

Thanks everybody (if possible pls cite ASA or other ruleset...)

Ciao
This is a good chance to properly deviate from the "BU takes the BR all the way to third" mechanic. When the BU moves into foul ground for the possible call at 1B on a throw from the right fielder, the PU should move toward the pitcher's circle. If the throw to first is poor and the runner attempts second, the PU should communicate, "I have the runner" -- and the BU communicates, "I have the plate" -- and rotates behind the PU.
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Old Mon Feb 26, 2007, 12:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigsig
Under the 2 man system, the base umpire is responsible for the batter-runner all the way to 3rd base (page 245).

On all balls hit through the infield the mechanic I use is to button hook into the infield and observe the BR touch 1st base. This puts you in a good position to watch if there is a throw from the outfield to first or to cut across the infield as the BR continues running to 2nd and/or 3rd.

Hope this helps.
BU can't go into fair territory (and hence be ready to button hook) in the OP scenario without getting into the middle of the throw (potentially). This situation is where the BU starting in the "almost B" position has an advantage.
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Old Mon Feb 26, 2007, 01:50pm
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If the runner goes to 2nd because of a bad throw, the BU should be able to get a good enough angle to cover 2nd. More of a problem is if the runner misjudges and the throw goes to 2nd.

What change have you heard, Antonella?
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Old Mon Feb 26, 2007, 02:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
BU can't go into fair territory (and hence be ready to button hook) in the OP scenario without getting into the middle of the throw (potentially). This situation is where the BU starting in the "almost B" position has an advantage.
The hit was to right-center - as soon at it appears it's going to clear F4, I'm busting butt to a line between 1B and F1 - shouldn't be a problem. In all of my games, I've been caught in foul ground once - on a shot between RF and the line nearly caught but shorthopped. It whizzed by at head level, and I WOULD have been in the way (as you describe) of either the ball or F3's play on the ball, but by the time I tried to start heading to the infield, the ball was already on it's way back. Luckily, it was caught for an out, and I was not stuck in the OP's sitch.

A ball to RCF should not be a problem ball.

That said ... I HAVE discussed this with PU's on occasion - and they would make the exception and head toward 2B just in case, with us reversing responsibilities for the rest of the play.
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Old Mon Feb 26, 2007, 02:24pm
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The mechanic that Larry(argodad) gave is perfectly acceptable in situations such as the one posed in the OP. This is the one that I use, and I usually cover it with my partners during the pregame.
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Old Mon Feb 26, 2007, 02:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
If the runner goes to 2nd because of a bad throw, the BU should be able to get a good enough angle to cover 2nd. More of a problem is if the runner misjudges and the throw goes to 2nd.
More importantly, the plate umpire, hustling straight through the middle of the diamond will be able to get not just a better angle than the BU for a potential play at second, but the best angle. Often times "good enough" just isn't really good enough, especially in higher level games.
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Old Mon Feb 26, 2007, 03:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
The hit was to right-center - ...A ball to RCF should not be a problem ball.....
I was taking the OP at his word that he had to stay in foul ground.
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Old Mon Feb 26, 2007, 04:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skahtboi
More importantly, the plate umpire, hustling straight through the middle of the diamond will be able to get not just a better angle than the BU for a potential play at second, but the best angle. Often times "good enough" just isn't really good enough, especially in higher level games.
I agree, just trying to cover all aspects, especially if the PU does not react. Even if covered in pre-game, the PU might not read it the same.
Caveat: the switch requires verbal communication by the PU, as Larry said.
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Last edited by CecilOne; Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 04:28pm.
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Old Mon Feb 26, 2007, 05:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
If the runner goes to 2nd because of a bad throw, the BU should be able to get a good enough angle to cover 2nd. More of a problem is if the runner misjudges and the throw goes to 2nd.
That is easier said than done. If there is a bad throw, that runner is going to get a nice jump on the BU coming from foul ground. On top of catching the runner, the BU also needs to worry about possibly avoiding a bad throw, a fielder trying to catch the bad throw, possibly an excited coach waving like a windmill on speed. Even then, depending on where the ball ends up, to get into a proper position, the umpire may cross in front of a possible throwing lane.

Too many things could go wrong with this to rely on it. PU should always be alert to the possibility of needing to pick-up a trapped partner's call. If the PU executes the prescribed mechanics properly, it shouldn't be an issue.
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Old Mon Feb 26, 2007, 05:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by argodad
This is a good chance to properly deviate from the "BU takes the BR all the way to third" mechanic. When the BU moves into foul ground for the possible call at 1B on a throw from the right fielder, the PU should move toward the pitcher's circle. If the throw to first is poor and the runner attempts second, the PU should communicate, "I have the runner" -- and the BU communicates, "I have the plate" -- and rotates behind the PU.
I agree that the PU should be in position to possibly pick up BU if necessary. IMO, and one I have heard universally, is that there is NO TIME that 2 man mechanics call for the BU to cover home. The sole exception that I can think of is if the PU breaks his leg and is laying on the ground immobile.

If I am PU and I have the runner, I have the runner the rest of that play, unless the runner retreats to 1B. If I hear "I have the plate", my response is "NO, YOU DON'T".
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Old Tue Feb 27, 2007, 04:27am
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Dear friends,

I found very helpful all your posts.
I agree the situation in the OP should be an exception to the standard movements.

My opinion is that BU in a simple situation should follow the runner towards second base… if the ball (throw, play) comes from the area between home plate/first base/foul territory, BU should try to go to 2^ staying OUTSIDE the baseline. If the ball (throw, play) comes from the OUTFIELD (foul or fair it doesn’t matter - e.g. a no catch), BU should follow the runner staying in the infield. To say it differently the “outside/inside theory” should be followed also in this kind of situation.
And - plus - we are still following the principle Henry Pollard said once (and I never forget) "the play dictates".

I ABSOLUTELY agree that sometimes PU has a better angle to a possible play at second base: PU is already (almost) in the middle of the infield (trailing batter-runner) and what PU should do is just continue towards second base. In this scenario BU is obviously “blocked” in foul territory and cannot reach the right position to follow BR!

My FINAL question is: should we adopt the “exception” (PU covering the bases and BU go at the plate) as a “rule” (a drawing on our manual) or we should better say this is just an alternate possibility based on what will happen during the play and/or the two umps decisions before the game?

Ancora grazie per l’aiuto!
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Old Tue Feb 27, 2007, 08:50am
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On those hits, its REALLY important to GET INSIDE the diamond and NOT get stuck in foul territory.... Ive seen too many base umpires "watch" the ball into right field for too long, and get stuck outside as a result....and once you get stuck out there, youre useless on an overthrow. You will NOT catch the runner to get a good look at the play at second. So try HARD to get in there. It IS almost always possible. Having said that, If I work with an umpire that I havent seen or met before, I will pregame this exact scenario so that we have 2nd base covered. I dont think it should be adopted as a mechanics because its technically a breakdown in coverage...
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Old Tue Feb 27, 2007, 10:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonella
My FINAL question is: should we adopt the “exception” (PU covering the bases and BU go at the plate) as a “rule” (a drawing on our manual)
Only if you add this coverage is to be used only when plate umpire breaks a leg, or suffers some other crippling injury covering the bases for the base umpire.

Base umpire NEVER covers home in two umpire mechanics. Not on this play; NEVER. You already had one breakdown in responsibility and coverage; certainly don't add a second breakdown in the same play.
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