Changing Calls?

[IamMatt]

Curious about a couple of calls I have seen recently (ASA 12U), and whether it is normal or typical to change a call.

1) BR grounds to F6, throw to F3 beats the runner, Ump calls "Out." Offensive coach calls out "Her foot was off the bag!" Ump says, "You're right, she's Safe!"

2) R1 stealing second, F2 throws to F4 covering 2B, F4 lays the tag down as R1 slides into 2B, which knocks F4's feet off balance just enough that she is supporting some of her weight on her feet and some on her hands on the runner (preventing her from tagging and raising her glove since she is leaning on it). Ump calls "Out!" 2-3 seconds after the call, as F4 rights herself, the ball comes out of her glove. Offensive coach calls out, "She dropped the ball!" Ump changes call to "Safe!"

My question comes from a point made recently in another post, which was basically, "If you didn't see it, don't call it." And in the ASA rule book I believe I have read that you don't "guess" on outs.

I would think in either case, if the ump called it, he must have seen it, so it seems odd that they would change the calls like that. Any thoughts?

BTW, no, in neither case did the coach ask the ump to check with his partner, nor did the ump do so on his own.

[tcannizzo]

My take on this umpire is that both calls were rushed. In his haste, he failed to take all of what he saw into account. There are better ways of handling a kicked call.

Play 1 - Seems like he simply kicked the call.
Play 2 - Is difficult to understand. You write that a tag was applied, but that she was prevented from tagging the runner. If the tag was applied, the player had to have control of the ball for an out to be called. In which case, the out should stand. However, if the "tag" was due to F4 trapping the ball on the runner, not having control, and then "dropping" the ball upon untangling, then the OUT call was premature.

[CecilOne]

1) If the BU saw the foot off the base, and still was wrong by rushing the out call, then he should have corrected himself immediately, w/o the complaint.
2) Also not sure what it says, particularly if the "drop" was just a drop after the play (out) or if it means the fielder never had control (safe); the former implied to be correct by "F4 lays the tag down".

[IamMatt]

Sorry for the lack of clarity. In the second play (as I observed it) F4 was facing the runner coming from 1B, knees pretty straight, and applying the tag by mostly bending at the waist. She successfully tagged the runner befor she reached 2B. As the runner's slide continued, her feet knocked F4's feet slightly back towards 2B, so that in her bent-over position, F4's feet could no longer support her completely, and part of her weighted shifted to her hands, which were on the runner. So the runner was on the ground in her "just-slid" position, and F4 was in a sort of butt-in-the-air bent-over position, like you would be if you stood upright with your legs only slightly bent, touched your toes with your fingers, then started walking forward with your hands while leaving your feet still.

Once they were in that postition, they stopped, and, the ump having made the call during the slide, they started to get up (F4 first) and while she was sort of walking her hands back, the ball fell out of F4's glove. I would estimate at least 2 seconds had passed from the time the "Out" call was made and the time the ball fell out of her glove.

I could understand the call change better if, while getting up, she maybe moved or lifted her glove and it showed that the ball had been on the runner's body under her glove, but that was not the case. The ball fell out of the glove as she was lifting her glove had up.

Don't know if that helps with your thinking about the situation or not.

I think a big part of my question is that in both cases, the ump appeared to be changing his call in reaponse to a shout by the opposing coach. Had the call been sort of a simultaneous "Out! No, her foot was off the bag, Safe!" it would have seemed more appropriate since everybody is human and it would be better to spontaneously correct a misspoken call than to leave a bad call in place for fear of looking bad by changing it.

[CecilOne]

Both the OP and the expansion give me the impression that the drop came after the play; which means the umpire goofed.
"successfully tagged the runner befor she reached 2B" is an out.

[bigsig]

I agree with my fellow umpires. The ump must train to hesitate. On out calls make sure you see the foot and/or the ball before making the call. And remember, in order to be safe the runner must beat the ball/tag.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bigsig

I agree with my fellow umpires. The ump must train to hesitate. On out calls make sure you see the foot and/or the ball before making the call. And remember, in order to be safe the runner must beat the ball/tag.

Another myth perpetuated.

Actually, the ball must beat the runner, but you know none of us call it that way

[IamMatt]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Play 2 - Is difficult to understand. You write that a tag was applied, but that she was prevented from tagging the runner.

I should have written "preventing her from raising her glove after the tag (to show she had control of the ball)" instead of "preventing her from tagging and raising her glove..."

[bigsig]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Another myth perpetuated.

Actually, the ball must beat the runner, but you know none of us call it that way

I think we said the same thing.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bigsig

I think we said the same thing.

Mild difference, but gives credence to the proverbial "tie".

Speaking ASA, the rule states that the runner must be retired prior to reaching the base. This means the onus is on the defense to beat the runner, not for the runner to beat the ball. It also means that a tie does indeed go to the runner.

[DaveASA/FED]

Kind of like the old justice system you are innocent until proven guilty, the rules say you are safe until proven out(ball has to beat runner) we call it as you are out until proven safe (runner has to beat the ball).

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Kind of like the old justice system you are innocent until proven guilty, the rules say you are safe until proven out(ball has to beat runner) we call it as you are out until proven safe (runner has to beat the ball).

DO you?

[wadeintothem]

the call change that bugged me was a few tourneys ago.. I was PU, ball hit.. after the bad play by def, def coach went to my BU to see if he saw the ball hit the b/r in the box.. BU then changed it to seeing that way.

Lame to change yourself on what should have been an immediate dead ball IF you saw that, and honestly and of course the offense coach had a heart attack. I didnt want to get into a pissing contest with my "partner'' during the game so I just let the drama play out and we continued on bringing the batter back after the extraordinary "delayed" dead ball call.

IMO, if you see dead ball, call it, or eat it, but whatever you do, dont get talked into it.

[bigsig]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Mild difference, but gives credence to the proverbial "tie".

Speaking ASA, the rule states that the runner must be retired prior to reaching the base. This means the onus is on the defense to beat the runner, not for the runner to beat the ball. It also means that a tie does indeed go to the runner.

That's very interesting. Our local ASA (Long Island, NY) insists and trains all umpires that a tie does not go to the runner. The runner must beat the ball.
Could you please clarify the rule for me?
Thanks

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bigsig

That's very interesting. Our local ASA (Long Island, NY) insists and trains all umpires that a tie does not go to the runner. The runner must beat the ball.
Could you please clarify the rule for me?
Thanks

ASA 8.2 BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT.

B. When after hitting a fair ball the batter-runner is legally put out PRIOR to reaching first base. (My emphasis)

This means that if the ball and the runner get there at the same time, the runner MUST be safe since s/he was not retired PRIOR to reaching 1B.

As I stated before, though, many call it a different way.

Beat the ball, the call goes to the runner;
Ball beats the runner, the call goes to the defense;
Both get there at the same time, the call goes to the umpire!