too late to call infield fly?

[Dakota]

I do not agree with those who take the position that the runners are responsibile for knowing the game situation and therefore treat an uncalled IF as if it were a called IF. That makes no sense to me (as WMB says, at least in ASA - but I would state it more to my point - at least under any rules that allow the IF to be called after-the-fact, as ASA does).

Do not forget... there are two component to the IF:

1) The game situation (force at 3rd, less than 2 outs), and

2) A fly ball that in the umpire's judgment can be caught with ordinary effort by an infielder.

The runners cannot get inside the umpire's head, nor can they substitute their own judgment for his. If the IF is not called, their only choice is to advance, because they are now forced to advance.

If the IF is called after-the-fact, rule 10-6-C (ASA) provides the umpire with the responsibility for fixing the fact that his delayed call placed the runners in jeopardy by forcing them to run.

Assuming the judgment was correct in the OP situation (ordinary effort and all that), the actions by the umpires was correct (assuming ASA).

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I do not agree with those who take the position that the runners are responsibile for knowing the game situation and therefore treat an uncalled IF as if it were a called IF. That makes no sense to me (as WMB says, at least in ASA - but I would state it more to my point - at least under any rules that allow the IF to be called after-the-fact, as ASA does).

Do not forget... there are two component to the IF:

1) The game situation (force at 3rd, less than 2 outs), and

2) A fly ball that in the umpire's judgment can be caught with ordinary effort by an infielder.

The runners cannot get inside the umpire's head, nor can they substitute their own judgment for his. If the IF is not called, their only choice is to advance, because they are now forced to advance.

If the IF is called after-the-fact, rule 10-6-C (ASA) provides the umpire with the responsibility for fixing the fact that his delayed call placed the runners in jeopardy by forcing them to run.

Assuming the judgment was correct in the OP situation (ordinary effort and all that), the actions by the umpires was correct (assuming ASA).

I honestly am asking for clarification on this, Tom. Are you saying that you wouldn't enforce an IFR AFTER the play was over? Is that the proper way in ASA? I know in Fed. there is an undeclared IF. I don't particularly like it but it gives an umpire a way to correct a mistake.

[Dakota]

No, I am saying I would (in addition to enforcing the IF) correct the jeopardy I placed the runners in with the late call. That is, return runners who attempted to advanced under the forced to advance situation and were tagged out.

Obviously, force outs no longer stand (since the IF removed the force).

These situations are HTBT, but in general, the "needs to know the situation" principle only applies up to when umpire judgment comes in. At that point, there is no "situation" to know.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by John Robertson

Hypothetical situation:

Bases loaded with none out. Batter hits a high fly ball that appears to be headed for the outfield. Suddenly a gust of wind blows it back into the infield. The umpires don't react quickly and the ball lands near the shortstop. The shortstop picks up the ball and starts a home-to-third double play. The offensive team complains that this should have been called an infield fly.

Can the umpires call "infield fly" after the fact (declaring the batter out and returning the runners to their bases)?

Wind is the one thing that can be a factor on whether or not to call IFR....

[Igotthetag]

I have been lurking and watching for a while. I am really moved to ask those of you who have said that if you made the call late and runners were put out subsequent to having been placed in jeopardy by your "mistake", that you would try to make them whole and return them to the base they left. In that same situation, had the runners made it to the next base without being put out, would you also return them to their previous bases respectively. I don't think so, therefore, you can't undo the out, legitimately. (IMHO)

Please help me to understand the difference.

Duane

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by Igotthetag

I have been lurking and watching for a while. I am really moved to ask those of you who have said that if you made the call late and runners were put out subsequent to having been placed in jeopardy by your "mistake", that you would try to make them whole and return them to the base they left. In that same situation, had the runners made it to the next base without being put out, would you also return them to their previous bases respectively. I don't think so, therefore, you can't undo the out, legitimately. (IMHO)

Please help me to understand the difference.

Duane

No reason to be moved - it's in the rulebook. If your wrong call or mishandled call puts a player in jeopardy, the umpire has the responsiblity to fix the problem. Runners that made it to the next base were not jeopardized - therefore their advance would remain.