Infield Fly if you don't call it immediately

[FUBLUE]

Here's one for the records:

I was working my 6th game of the day this weekend, and in the top of the first it's already 5-0 with bases loaded and one out. Batter hits high pop-up about 15 feet in front of plate, within 5 feet of first base line. I point say (not extremely loud, but loud enough catcher says she heard me) "INFIELD FLY IF FAIR". It was a can of corn, and of course...she drops it.

She picks up ball and tags runner coming from third.

Once fans get done screaming the normal "run, go back, throw it to first, step on the plate, do a summersault, play leap-frog, etc." I explain to coach that I said infield fly if fair, batter-runner is out, runner from third is out on tag.

He doesn't say anything, probably because of score...he won 13-0 in 5 innings (and 55 minutes, thank you very much).

He asked this question after the game:

If I don't call it, is it still an infield fly? I said yes it is, because players and coaches should know the situation.

Was I right?

[Bandit]

Yes

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by FUBLUE
Here's one for the records:

I was working my 6th game of the day this weekend, and in the top of the first it's already 5-0 with bases loaded and one out. Batter hits high pop-up about 15 feet in front of plate, within 5 feet of first base line. I point say (not extremely loud, but loud enough catcher says she heard me) "INFIELD FLY IF FAIR". It was a can of corn, and of course...she drops it.

She picks up ball and tags runner coming from third.

Once fans get done screaming the normal "run, go back, throw it to first, step on the plate, do a summersault, play leap-frog, etc." I explain to coach that I said infield fly if fair, batter-runner is out, runner from third is out on tag.

He doesn't say anything, probably because of score...he won 13-0 in 5 innings (and 55 minutes, thank you very much).

He asked this question after the game:

If I don't call it, is it still an infield fly? I said yes it is, because players and coaches should know the situation.

Was I right?

Yes, but if you don't call it in the scenario you offered, you should place the runner back on 3B as your failure to make that call placed that runner in jeopardy.

[Bandit]

If I don't have to call it for the rule to apply ? Why or how can I be putting the runner in jeopardy ? Double play. runner out.

[Robmoz]

Originally posted by FUBLUE
Here's one for the records:

... "INFIELD FLY IF FAIR". It was a can of corn, and of course...she drops it.

Was I right?

If Fair? This can only cause confusion, I beleive. If the pop up is near a foul line, I delay a second or two to determine if fair/foul. Players should be aware of the situation and act accordingly at their own risk.

Avoid adding the "if fair" in all instances of IFR, you would not call any other play with this connotation would you? This is similar to why we do not "call" a ball down the line fair, we only acknowledge by pointing fair or calling foul appropriately.

[DaveASA/FED]

I understand your point, but I don't think I agree with you. I have always been taught to add this if the pop up is near the line. You can't tell if it will be a fair ball or not when it is still in the air before 1st base! What if the first basewoman is camped under it and gets blinded by the sun and misses the ball, it hits 2 foot in fair territory then backspins into foul ground (never having been touched) where it is picked up? That would not be an infield fly as it was just a foul ball. I am interested to hear what others think about adding the "if fair" when an IF is close to the line.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Bandit
If I don't have to call it for the rule to apply ? Why or how can I be putting the runner in jeopardy ? Double play. runner out.

You are putting the runners in jeopardy because with a fly ball, the runners need to stay close enough to their base to not be doubled up for not tagging up. But when the ball is dropped, they must consider the force to be in effect and will therefore attempt to run. The skilled fielding team will very likely get a double play on the force outs.

OTOH, if you call IF, then the runners know the force is off and they can stay on their base. The defense gets the out on the fly ball, but no force outs.

Originally posted by Bandit
I point say (not extremely loud, but loud enough catcher says she heard me) "INFIELD FLY IF FAIR".

Correct call, but, pardon me - who the h--- cares if the catcher hears you. The call is for the runners. If they don't hear (or see your upraised hand signal) your call has not done what it is supposed to do. I hope by "point" you mean raise your right arm straignt up with a closed fist. The verbal should be very loud. BTW, "if fair" is correct ASA mechanic for a possible IF near the foul lines.

Originally posted by Bandit
He asked this question after the game:

If I don't call it, is it still an infield fly? I said yes it is, because players and coaches should know the situation.

Was I right?

Yes and no.

Yes, it is still an infield fly, but what this means is the umpire may correct his late or no call. However, if his late or no call placed runners in jeopardy, he needs to correct that, too.

No on your reason. The IF call is umpire judgment. True, the IF situation is cut and dried from the rule book (force at 3rd with less than 2 outs is a succinct way of stating it), but the actual call is umpire judgment - that pesky "ordinary effort." So, if you do not call it, the offense must assume that your judgment was it was not an IF so they must hoof it ASAP to the next base due to the force. You can't later make the call (to declare the BR out) and also allow force outs to stand, even if it was a tag.

[FUBLUE]

Originally posted by Robmoz

If Fair? This can only cause confusion, I beleive. If the pop up is near a foul line, I delay a second or two to determine if fair/foul. Players should be aware of the situation and act accordingly at their own risk.

Avoid adding the "if fair" in all instances of IFR, you would not call any other play with this connotation would you? This is similar to why we do not "call" a ball down the line fair, we only acknowledge by pointing fair or calling foul appropriately.

Fully understand your thought process, but do feel that adding "IF FAIR" is taught in many cases in order to clarify infield fly being in effect for fair balls only. I'm sure some coach somewhere argued it still being in effect on a foul ball. Just my HO.

[FUBLUE]

[[/B][/QUOTE]Yes and no.

Yes, it is still an infield fly, but what this means is the umpire may correct his late or no call. However, if his late or no call placed runners in jeopardy, he needs to correct that, too.

No on your reason. The IF call is umpire judgment. True, the IF situation is cut and dried from the rule book (force at 3rd with less than 2 outs is a succinct way of stating it), but the actual call is umpire judgment - that pesky "ordinary effort." So, if you do not call it, the offense must assume that your judgment was it was not an IF so they must hoof it ASAP to the next base due to the force. You can't later make the call (to declare the BR out) and also allow force outs to stand, even if it was a tag. [/B][/QUOTE]

I see how this could be construed, but I don't think I put the runners in jeopardy by not screaming it at the top of my lungs (which were pretty much shot anyway). Runner was down the line, when the ball was not caught, she went back, tagged, and came home.

She said to coach, "but it's an infield fly, I don't have to go" or something of the lines after the play. She obviously knew the situation, as did the batter-runner and runner on first. Only runner on second didn't know what was going on, and coaches.

So did I really put this runner in jeopardy, or did coach?

And, thankfully, the forces of softball were looking after me and the team that was "harmed" by the call still won the game.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by FUBLUE


Fully understand your thought process, but do feel that adding "IF FAIR" is taught in many cases in order to clarify infield fly being in effect for fair balls only. I'm sure some coach somewhere argued it still being in effect on a foul ball. Just my HO.

You state "IF FAIR" to clarify the call. After all, you are declaring the BR out at that point. Such a statement helps reduce the number of perceived "double calls".

[Lenny F]

Not calling infield fly does not negate the infield rule.
I disagree with the statemant made in an eairlier post that runners would be returned. Yes is is our responsibilty to call the infield fly or at least signal the situation but it does not remove it if not called/signaled. It is the teams responsibility to know the situation. Same as dropped third strike with runners on less than two out scerino. Lenny F.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Lenny F
Not calling infield fly does not negate the infield rule.
I disagree with the statemant made in an eairlier post that runners would be returned. Yes is is our responsibilty to call the infield fly or at least signal the situation but it does not remove it if not called/signaled. It is the teams responsibility to know the situation. Same as dropped third strike with runners on less than two out scerino. Lenny F.

You may disagree with the statement, but here is the proof
that the situation should be corrected.

Case Play 8.2-35 is very clear. Here is the ruling from that play:

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, one out, batter hits an apparent IF.
The umpire fails to invoke the rule. The fly ball is not
caught, in the confusion, both runners are tagged off base
resulting in three outs:

Ruling:

"The infield fly should have been in effect. Failure of the umpire to invoke the infield fly placed the runners in jeopardy. This is correctable by calling the batter out and returning the runners. (8-2I; 10-6C)."

BTW - .02 check in the mail Tom.


[Edited by whiskers_ump on Jun 21st, 2004 at 10:20 PM]

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by Lenny F
Not calling infield fly does not negate the infield rule.
I disagree with the statemant made in an eairlier post that runners would be returned. Yes is is our responsibilty to call the infield fly or at least signal the situation but it does not remove it if not called/signaled. It is the teams responsibility to know the situation. Same as dropped third strike with runners on less than two out scerino. Lenny F.

OK, think about this a little more deeply. The IF is a call based upon the umpire's judgement. Now, what I call an IF, you may not. So, how would a runner or coach of dubious judgement know if it's an IF unless you call it? By making the declaration, you are letting the world know that the IF has been called. But, it's not positively an out, if it goes foul. And you can't call foul at all, 'cause now you really messed up. So, let the world know if it stays fair, the batter is out and the runners do not have to advance if the ball hits the ground.

[whiskers_ump]

Rick,

How did your tournament go? Had a great time in La. We
got four hour rain delay on Sat. Scheduled to leave the
field at 6:30PM, left at 11:50. No problems on Sunday.
Heat on Sat. was 94 before rains...92 on Sunday.

[Lenny F]

I stand corrected I do not have case book and believe you 100%