Should conceding defeat be allowed?

[John Robertson]

I was working a youth tournament yesterday in which there was a six-run maximum per inning. One game was a total mismatch. After three innings, the home team was up 18-0. The mercy rule (of 15 runs) would not come into effect until five innings had been played. Before the top of the fourth inning, my partner had a talk with the coach of the team getting shellacked. The coach agreed to "concede defeat" after they had their turn at bat in the top of the fourth. (They didn't score in that inning, either.)

Where I live (Ontario) there is no provision for a team to "throw in the towel" without it being deemed a forfeit. Therefore, what happened wasn't entirely kosher. However, nobody wanted to see this route continue, and runs for and against made no difference in the tournament format.

I think it would be a good idea to allow teams to concede defeat when they are hopelessly behind and outclassed--sort of like what happens in a one-sided chess match. What does everyone else think?

[jwwashburn]

Just for clarification: "Throwing in the towel" IS a forfeit.

I would NEVER try to get a team to quit. THAT is no more my job than lining the field.

You agreed to do a game with a 6 run per inning and a 15 run mercy after 5 innings. If you talked them into ending it early, you owe someone a refund.

Joe

[IRISHMAFIA]

As an umpire, why would you care if a team chose not to continue a game?

What are you going to do, tell them to "play, or else?" If this was a tournament, it was probably in the best interest of all concerned, including teams waiting to play the next game on that field, to terminate the game an move on with the tournament.

This is not an umpire issue.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

As an umpire, why would you care if a team chose not to continue a game?

What are you going to do, tell them to "play, or else?" If this was a tournament, it was probably in the best interest of all concerned, including teams waiting to play the next game on that field, to terminate the game an move on with the tournament.

This is not an umpire issue.

Exactly. This is not an umpire issue. So, no umpire should be trying to talk a coach into quitting.

Joe

[LLPA13UmpDan]

Never QUIT! Its possible to comback...Heres a story for you...one of my partners told me this...he was behind the plate for a softball game that 56 runs scored total. in the forth inning, home team was down by 19 runs. In the bottom of the 4th, they came back and scored 10 runs, meaning the game would continue, no mercy rule. they went on to win the game in the bottom of the 6th inning.

[John Robertson]

Just to clarify a few things...

I did not talk the team into quitting--my partner did. I had no idea what he was discussing with the coach until he told me what the conversation was about prior to the fourth inning.

Personally, I would not have suggested the idea to the coach either. However, I think it's not an entirely bad rule to institute. A team is getting creamed. They're totally outclassed. Having the option of honorably conceding defeat is not so terrible an idea. Just my opinion, though.

Yes, there have been some miraculous comebacks--but it wasn't going to happen in this game. There is a better chance of a Royals-Pirates World Series this year than the team that was losing 18-0 coming back to win that game. I was there.

[FUBLUE]

In a word,

YES.

If a team doesn't want to play the game, or decides they've had enough, then call it a day.

If the loser's bracket team wants to forfeit the championship game because they're tired and have played 8 games that day, then let them. They've earned that right.

Heck, if the Winner's bracket team wants to forfeit a game, let them.

I've been on all three sides of this: winning coach, losing coach, umpire. I didn't like any of the three sides. It wasn't fun to umpire the game. It wasn't fun to beat up on a team (which we didn't once we got the requisite runs ahead). It wasn't fun to get beat on by a team (even if they are calling off the dogs after getting the requisite runs ahead). No one learns from these games.

As a coach, I've always used these games as learning experiences. I asked a team that was thumping my team to bunt, to get caught in rundowns, to get in various situations so my defense could practice it. I've even asked a coach to have her pitcher throw a lot of drop balls so my girls could get used to seeing it. When I've been ahead, I've had my girls bunt, work on slapping, etc., so we can practice. I've let the other coach know that we are going to do it...requested of him to let me know if he wanted us to get in certain situations, etc. I've gotten my #3 and #4 pitcher into game situations...good experience.

But I've also told the umpire we were going to do what we were going to do.

As an umpire, I just bear with it. Eventually a coach (except for about two I know) will get the run rule lead, then have girls leave early, bunt into outs, etc. One area coach, while coaching third, will actually tell us that leaving early is going to happen before he has his girl leave the base.

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

Originally Posted by FUBLUE

In a word,

YES.

If a team doesn't want to play the game, or decides they've had enough, then call it a day.

If the loser's bracket team wants to forfeit the championship game because they're tired and have played 8 games that day, then let them. They've earned that right.

Heck, if the Winner's bracket team wants to forfeit a game, let them.

I've been on all three sides of this: winning coach, losing coach, umpire. I didn't like any of the three sides. It wasn't fun to umpire the game. It wasn't fun to beat up on a team (which we didn't once we got the requisite runs ahead). It wasn't fun to get beat on by a team (even if they are calling off the dogs after getting the requisite runs ahead). No one learns from these games.

As a coach, I've always used these games as learning experiences. I asked a team that was thumping my team to bunt, to get caught in rundowns, to get in various situations so my defense could practice it. I've even asked a coach to have her pitcher throw a lot of drop balls so my girls could get used to seeing it. When I've been ahead, I've had my girls bunt, work on slapping, etc., so we can practice. I've let the other coach know that we are going to do it...requested of him to let me know if he wanted us to get in certain situations, etc. I've gotten my #3 and #4 pitcher into game situations...good experience.

But I've also told the umpire we were going to do what we were going to do.

As an umpire, I just bear with it. Eventually a coach (except for about two I know) will get the run rule lead, then have girls leave early, bunt into outs, etc. One area coach, while coaching third, will actually tell us that leaving early is going to happen before he has his girl leave the base.

We had a a 7th/8th grade coach here that did basically the same thing - (in NYS, that level has NO run rule...)he would tell the BU to ring up his kids for leaving early if they tried to steal..or even if they stepped off 1st! - you should have seen the look on a kids face the first time that happened! That program schools it kids AND parents very good in sportsmanship, so the parents are not usually a problem when that happens either. I was BU in one of those games once, and by sheer reflex I actually called his BR safe on a banger at 1B.....very strange to get a negative response from the offensive coach when you call one of his kids SAFE...

And I wholeheartedly agree that the kids learn NOTHING from a blowout experience like that - except perhaps NOT to like softball! Lets get the darn game over, and head for the local Mickey Ds....

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE

We had a a 7th/8th grade coach here that did basically the same thing - (in NYS, that level has NO run rule...)he would tell the BU to ring up his kids for leaving early if they tried to steal..or even if they stepped off 1st! - you should have seen the look on a kids face the first time that happened! That program schools it kids AND parents very good in sportsmanship, so the parents are not usually a problem when that happens either. I was BU in one of those games once, and by sheer reflex I actually called his BR safe on a banger at 1B.....very strange to get a negative response from the offensive coach when you call one of his kids SAFE...

This is an approach with which I do not agree. Not everyone understands this and it can bring an umpires integrity into play. I tell the coach I will call what I see. If it is that obvious, it is just as much a slap in the face to the team getting thumped as the thumping itself.

I suggest to the coach that they have a conversation with the opposing coach and come to a conclusion without the umpire's being placed in the middle.

[JEL]

[QUOTE=John Robertson] Before the top of the fourth inning, my partner had a talk with the coach of the team getting shellacked. The coach agreed to "concede defeat" after they had their turn at bat in the top of the fourth. QUOTE]


If the coach initiated this conversation, or possibly asked "how can we stop it?" or something to that effect, fine---I MIGHT suggest he could always concede (thus forfiet). That would be answering his question.

There shouldn't be an attempt to "coach the coach."

[bluezebra]

In my area, a HS coach who pulls her/his team off the field, is fired after a hearing.

As for getting clobbered. Back in the mid-80s, the visiting team in a private HS game scored 19 runs in the top of the seventh. Luckily, I didn't have that game.

Bob

[WestMichBlue]

One of four NFHS game ending rules, if adopted by State Association, allows the team behind by more than 15 runs to end the game at anytime.

Just because I wear the Blue does not mean that as a human being I lose my feelings of empathy for kids getting whipped. If a game is out of control early, I will manage to discretely let a coach know his legal options for ending a game.

WMB

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

One of four NFHS game ending rules, if adopted by State Association, allows the team behind by more than 15 runs to end the game at anytime.

Just because I wear the Blue does not mean that as a human being I lose my feelings of empathy for kids getting whipped. If a game is out of control early, I will manage to discretely let a coach know his legal options for ending a game.

WMB

I have never seen that one in writing. I am in Michigan. Where would that be written?

Do you also tell coaches when their pitchers should throw a change up? Umpires have NO BUSINESS getting involved in this sort of thing.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

I have never seen that one in writing. I am in Michigan. Where would that be written?

Do you also tell coaches when their pitchers should throw a change up? Umpires have NO BUSINESS getting involved in this sort of thing.

I think you are very wrong here. I would never tell a coach to quit - never. My post was in talking to the WINNING coach. I agree with one of the other posts - I'm also a compassionate person and feel empathy for the other team. I have told coaches in basketball - without hesitation - when they are continuing to press, and beating a team's brains out "Back 'em up coach" If they don't I start calling the ticky-tack stuff to back them up. There's no sense in humiliating a team. If you think that's wrong - don't have me scheduled for any of your games.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

I have never seen that one in writing. I am in Michigan. Where would that be written?

Hopefully you are not a MHSAA registered official; otherwise you have no excuse for making that statement. Read your Officials Guide.

Do you also tell coaches when their pitchers should throw a change up? Umpires have NO BUSINESS getting involved in this sort of thing.

Don't get all bent out of shape, Washburn. All we are talking about are RULES - which I get from reading my Officials Guide. I used the word "descretely" in my post to describe my actions in letting the losing coach know what his legal options are.

WMB