How would you rule?

[greymule]

From my reading of the ASA case book and rule book, I believe that a live-ball appeal for a missed base can be made immediately upon the miss. In other words, if a runner slides past home plate without touching it, F2 can immediately step on home and appeal to the umpire. F2 does not have to tag the runner.

I also assume that this applies to a miss at any base. For example, if a runner trying to steal 2B managed to avoid the tag but by doing so also slid past 2B without touching it, the fielder could immediately tag the base and appeal to the umpire. Of course, this is largely theoretical, since the fielder by instinct would almost certainly tag the runner.

But the implications could affect the following play:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, 2 out. Charles hits a ground ball to F6, who throws wide to 2B. F4, drawn away the bag and unable to reach it, attempts to tag the sliding Baker. Abel scores. Baker avoids the tag and also slides past 2B without touching it. F4 now dives over 2B and tags Baker, who is lying past the bag, clearly unsuccessful in his bid to reach back and touch it.

The umpire calls Baker out and rules that the run scores, since the play became a tag play once Baker passed 2B.

So the defense appeals Baker's miss of 2B.

Do you uphold the appeal and nullify the run?

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by greymule

From my reading of the ASA case book and rule book, I believe that a live-ball appeal for a missed base can be made immediately upon the miss. In other words, if a runner slides past home plate without touching it, F2 can immediately step on home and appeal to the umpire. F2 does not have to tag the runner.

I also assume that this applies to a miss at any base. For example, if a runner trying to steal 2B managed to avoid the tag but by doing so also slid past 2B without touching it, the fielder could immediately tag the base and appeal to the umpire. Of course, this is largely theoretical, since the fielder by instinct would almost certainly tag the runner.

But the implications could affect the following play:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, 2 out. Charles hits a ground ball to F6, who throws wide to 2B. F4, drawn away the bag and unable to reach it, attempts to tag the sliding Baker. Abel scores. Baker avoids the tag and also slides past 2B without touching it. F4 now dives over 2B and tags Baker, who is lying past the bag, clearly unsuccessful in his bid to reach back and touch it.

The umpire calls Baker out and rules that the run scores, since the play became a tag play once Baker passed 2B.

So the defense appeals Baker's miss of 2B.

Do you uphold the appeal and nullify the run?

Baker never touched 2B, force is still on. Tag Baker, out on force play for THIRD OUT. No run can score by rule.

Bob

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

Baker never touched 2B, force is still on. Tag Baker, out on force play for THIRD OUT. No run can score by rule.

Bob

No, it's not a force play once Baker passed second base - he is considered to have touched the base when he passes it for purposes of force outs. The tag is then merely the same as tagging him between 2nd and 3rd base - not a force. The APPEAL, then, however, becomes a force and nullifies the run. (IOW, absent the appeal, run scores).

[greymule]

the "fourth out" appeal.

I didn't even think of that. A fourth out appeal is being made on a runner who did not score. I was thinking purely in terms of the missed base/removed force.

After reading, and rereading 5.5, I am convinced that the "NOTE" the end of 5.5.B and 5.5.C are two independent rules.

How do you mean? I'm having a hard time understanding those rules. But remember the case play where, after a runner is tagged out at home for the third out, the batter is put out before reaching 1B. ASA says that the run that had scored earlier counts.

[tcblue13]

I agree with bluezebra. I have to interpret "passing a base" as attempting to reach the next base. An overrun or overslide is not necessarily passing the base especially if the runner is trying like all digdogs to get back to the base she missed. As long as the runner is attempting to rreach that base without any attempt to advance, that play is still on that runner. The force is on

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

I agree with bluezebra. I have to interpret "passing a base" as attempting to reach the next base. An overrun or overslide is not necessarily passing the base especially if the runner is trying like all digdogs to get back to the base she missed. As long as the runner is attempting to rreach that base without any attempt to advance, that play is still on that runner. The force is on

Fine for your interpretation. That, however, is not ASA's interpretation. The runner has achieved the base. There is no force on a runner attempting to return to a base after an overslide, any more than there is for a runner attempting to return to a base after rounding. The runner was merely tagged for being off the base, unless there is an appeal.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

I agree with bluezebra. I have to interpret "passing a base" as attempting to reach the next base. An overrun or overslide is not necessarily passing the base especially if the runner is trying like all digdogs to get back to the base she missed. As long as the runner is attempting to rreach that base without any attempt to advance, that play is still on that runner. The force is on

An overrun or overslide is most DEFINITELY passing the base. How in the world do you overslide or overrun without passing the base?!?!?!

This is not a matter of interpretation ... did the runner (whether on purpose or on accident, whether on the way to the next base or trying to return, and whether at 1st or any other base) PASS the base. If yes, then the force is off - they have PASSED the base.

Even if they are trying to return, the fielder has to tag them or appeal the miss. In ASA, if they are trying to return, they MUST be tagged (LBA not available if they are trying to return), which is consistent with the fact that the force is off by this point.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

How do you mean? I'm having a hard time understanding those rules. But remember the case play where, after a runner is tagged out at home for the third out, the batter is put out before reaching 1B. ASA says that the run that had scored earlier counts.

I agree that there may be a contradiction here, so I'm going to ask the question. Let you know of any response I receive.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I agree that there may be a contradiction here, so I'm going to ask the question. Let you know of any response I receive.

Well, below is the answer I received from ASA:

We, the Deputy Staff, believe you are making Rule 5 section 5 harder than it needs to be. Rule 5 section 5B 1-3 applies to when “ No run shall score if the THIRD out of the inning is the result of….. Rule 5 section 5C applies to a fourth out appeal only. By design the intent has always been to have an appeal process for a runner that had scored but did so without following the rules. The intent of the rule has never been to have the ability to appeal another runner, other than one that had scored, once the third out was recorded. We agree that because the rule change in 2003 added Rule 5 section 5C, the note should have been removed. As it is we believe the note only points out that there can be an appeal after the third out in order to nullify a run and 5C tells you how.

Our casebook play in this situation is correct. Once the third out was recorded on R2 there was no reason for the batter-runner to go all the way to 1B. Another example if R1 was on 3B and R2 on 2B with 2 outs and a ground ball to the infield and they throw R2 out at 3B after R1 scores but before the Batter-runner makes it to 1B (by choice or because they are slow) the intent of the rule is not to give the defense the ability to have a double play thus a 4th out and the run not count.

In your play, Runners on 3B and 1B, two outs. Batted ball to F6 who throws the ball past F4 at second base. R2 continues to, but is thrown out at 3B. However, R2 missed 2B. The defense now throws the ball to F4 who tags 2B and appeals the missed base.

By rule that run would score and rule 5 section 5 B1 does not apply, Rule 5 section 5C applies. Since R2 was thrown out at 3B for the third out the chance to appeal the runner missing 2B has gone by the way side.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

No, it's not a force play once Baker passed second base - he is considered to have touched the base when he passes it for purposes of force outs.

Isn't that technically incorrect, per POE 1.J - first sentence? "If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out..." implies to me that the force is still there - otherwise, wouldn't they have left that out? (I understand that the runner is considered to have touched, etc., etc.)

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

Isn't that technically incorrect, per POE 1.J - first sentence? "If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out..." implies to me that the force is still there - otherwise, wouldn't they have left that out? (I understand that the runner is considered to have touched, etc., etc.)

No, the force is not still there, and a runner who has missed a base must be tagged. What the POE says, however, is if (after whatever happens on the field is done) an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced, that appeal out is considered a force out. It does not say that the force is still on with respect to the live runner. (Consider the simple case of a runner overrunning first base and missing, with the throw coming in 2 seconds later with F3 on the bag - it's not an out unless F3 appeals the miss or tags the runner and appeals. Just touching first base with no indication of appeal is not enough.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

I'm going to back pedal on the opinion offered a while back on the "fourth out" appeal.

Speaking ASA

After reading, and rereading 5.5, I am convinced that the "NOTE" the end of 5.5.B and 5.5.C are two independent rules.

I would honor the appeal and nullify the run.

[tcblue13]

I stand corrected

[John Robertson]

Just to complicate things, in Canada (where I am) I'm reasonably sure that this play is considered both an appeal and a force play. Thus, if a proper appeal is made, the run would be nullified.

But In Canada we also put gravy on French fries...

[Andy]

So just to clarify for my own edification....

The official interp that Mike has provided from ASA says that the advantageous "fourth" out appeal to nullify a run is only available on a runner that has scored?

Is this correct?



And...just to ask...would the ruling be different in FED and/or NCAA?