How would you rule?

[greymule]

From my reading of the ASA case book and rule book, I believe that a live-ball appeal for a missed base can be made immediately upon the miss. In other words, if a runner slides past home plate without touching it, F2 can immediately step on home and appeal to the umpire. F2 does not have to tag the runner.

I also assume that this applies to a miss at any base. For example, if a runner trying to steal 2B managed to avoid the tag but by doing so also slid past 2B without touching it, the fielder could immediately tag the base and appeal to the umpire. Of course, this is largely theoretical, since the fielder by instinct would almost certainly tag the runner.

But the implications could affect the following play:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, 2 out. Charles hits a ground ball to F6, who throws wide to 2B. F4, drawn away the bag and unable to reach it, attempts to tag the sliding Baker. Abel scores. Baker avoids the tag and also slides past 2B without touching it. F4 now dives over 2B and tags Baker, who is lying past the bag, clearly unsuccessful in his bid to reach back and touch it.

The umpire calls Baker out and rules that the run scores, since the play became a tag play once Baker passed 2B.

So the defense appeals Baker's miss of 2B.

Do you uphold the appeal and nullify the run?

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by greymule

From my reading of the ASA case book and rule book, I believe that a live-ball appeal for a missed base can be made immediately upon the miss. In other words, if a runner slides past home plate without touching it, F2 can immediately step on home and appeal to the umpire. F2 does not have to tag the runner.

I also assume that this applies to a miss at any base. For example, if a runner trying to steal 2B managed to avoid the tag but by doing so also slid past 2B without touching it, the fielder could immediately tag the base and appeal to the umpire. Of course, this is largely theoretical, since the fielder by instinct would almost certainly tag the runner.

But the implications could affect the following play:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, 2 out. Charles hits a ground ball to F6, who throws wide to 2B. F4, drawn away the bag and unable to reach it, attempts to tag the sliding Baker. Abel scores. Baker avoids the tag and also slides past 2B without touching it. F4 now dives over 2B and tags Baker, who is lying past the bag, clearly unsuccessful in his bid to reach back and touch it.

The umpire calls Baker out and rules that the run scores, since the play became a tag play once Baker passed 2B.

So the defense appeals Baker's miss of 2B.

Do you uphold the appeal and nullify the run?

Baker never touched 2B, force is still on. Tag Baker, out on force play for THIRD OUT. No run can score by rule.

Bob

[IRISHMAFIA]

I'm going to back pedal on the opinion offered a while back on the "fourth out" appeal.

Speaking ASA

After reading, and rereading 5.5, I am convinced that the "NOTE" the end of 5.5.B and 5.5.C are two independent rules.

I would honor the appeal and nullify the run.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

Baker never touched 2B, force is still on. Tag Baker, out on force play for THIRD OUT. No run can score by rule.

Bob

No, it's not a force play once Baker passed second base - he is considered to have touched the base when he passes it for purposes of force outs. The tag is then merely the same as tagging him between 2nd and 3rd base - not a force. The APPEAL, then, however, becomes a force and nullifies the run. (IOW, absent the appeal, run scores).

[greymule]

the "fourth out" appeal.

I didn't even think of that. A fourth out appeal is being made on a runner who did not score. I was thinking purely in terms of the missed base/removed force.

After reading, and rereading 5.5, I am convinced that the "NOTE" the end of 5.5.B and 5.5.C are two independent rules.

How do you mean? I'm having a hard time understanding those rules. But remember the case play where, after a runner is tagged out at home for the third out, the batter is put out before reaching 1B. ASA says that the run that had scored earlier counts.

[tcblue13]

I agree with bluezebra. I have to interpret "passing a base" as attempting to reach the next base. An overrun or overslide is not necessarily passing the base especially if the runner is trying like all digdogs to get back to the base she missed. As long as the runner is attempting to rreach that base without any attempt to advance, that play is still on that runner. The force is on

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

I agree with bluezebra. I have to interpret "passing a base" as attempting to reach the next base. An overrun or overslide is not necessarily passing the base especially if the runner is trying like all digdogs to get back to the base she missed. As long as the runner is attempting to rreach that base without any attempt to advance, that play is still on that runner. The force is on

Fine for your interpretation. That, however, is not ASA's interpretation. The runner has achieved the base. There is no force on a runner attempting to return to a base after an overslide, any more than there is for a runner attempting to return to a base after rounding. The runner was merely tagged for being off the base, unless there is an appeal.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

I agree with bluezebra. I have to interpret "passing a base" as attempting to reach the next base. An overrun or overslide is not necessarily passing the base especially if the runner is trying like all digdogs to get back to the base she missed. As long as the runner is attempting to rreach that base without any attempt to advance, that play is still on that runner. The force is on

An overrun or overslide is most DEFINITELY passing the base. How in the world do you overslide or overrun without passing the base?!?!?!

This is not a matter of interpretation ... did the runner (whether on purpose or on accident, whether on the way to the next base or trying to return, and whether at 1st or any other base) PASS the base. If yes, then the force is off - they have PASSED the base.

Even if they are trying to return, the fielder has to tag them or appeal the miss. In ASA, if they are trying to return, they MUST be tagged (LBA not available if they are trying to return), which is consistent with the fact that the force is off by this point.

[tcblue13]

I stand corrected

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

No, it's not a force play once Baker passed second base - he is considered to have touched the base when he passes it for purposes of force outs.

Isn't that technically incorrect, per POE 1.J - first sentence? "If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out..." implies to me that the force is still there - otherwise, wouldn't they have left that out? (I understand that the runner is considered to have touched, etc., etc.)

[greymule]

In ASA, if they are trying to return, they MUST be tagged

That's one of the key points involved in this play. While it's certainly true in OBR that a runner in the vicinity of the base must be tagged, I'm not sure that's the case in ASA (see OP). The case book gives a play where the runner misses home and F2 immediately appeals by touching the plate. No mention of the runner having left the vicinity.

In other words, in the play in the OP, if F4 had (a) stepped on 2B and immediately appealed to the umpire that Baker had missed 2B, or (b) while diving to tag Baker had said, "Ump. He missed 2B," then the appeal would nullify the run. This is only because (the way I understand it, which could be wrong) ASA permits an immediate live-ball appeal at the missed base.

Incidentally, in OBR, the runner at 2B in this play is of course out (tagged off the base), but it's a straight time play with the runner from 3B—not a force. And there is no later appeal for missing the base. The run scores and cannot be nullified. Of course, had Baker advanced to 3B without touching 2B, an appeal at 2B would indeed nullify the run.

The apparent prohibition of a "fourth out" appeal on a runner who has not scored is yet another wrinkle unique to ASA. With their rule change a couple of years ago and the change in ruling on a case play, I don't see how the appeal can be allowed.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

In ASA, if they are trying to return, they MUST be tagged (LBA not available if they are trying to return)

I need to be convinced. Here's my logic:

8-7-G: "The Runner Is Out" - "When a runner fails to touch the intervening base...and the ball is returned to an infielder and properly appealed."

8-7-I Effect 1.2. (for above listed section and others) "(Live Ball Appeal) If properly appealed during a live ball, the runner is out."

POE 1.B. "Appeals" - "Live. In all games an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed..."

Those are ASA rules, in the ASA rule book, specifically talking about LBA, with no inclusion of the phrase "unless the runner is trying to return," so how is LBA not available in ASA, (regardless of what the runner is doing)?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

Isn't that technically incorrect, per POE 1.J - first sentence? "If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out..." implies to me that the force is still there - otherwise, wouldn't they have left that out? (I understand that the runner is considered to have touched, etc., etc.)

No, the force is not still there, and a runner who has missed a base must be tagged. What the POE says, however, is if (after whatever happens on the field is done) an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced, that appeal out is considered a force out. It does not say that the force is still on with respect to the live runner. (Consider the simple case of a runner overrunning first base and missing, with the throw coming in 2 seconds later with F3 on the bag - it's not an out unless F3 appeals the miss or tags the runner and appeals. Just touching first base with no indication of appeal is not enough.)

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

I need to be convinced. Here's my logic:

8-7-G: "The Runner Is Out" - "When a runner fails to touch the intervening base...and the ball is returned to an infielder and properly appealed."

8-7-I Effect 1.2. (for above listed section and others) "(Live Ball Appeal) If properly appealed during a live ball, the runner is out."

POE 1.B. "Appeals" - "Live. In all games an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed..."

Those are ASA rules, in the ASA rule book, specifically talking about LBA, with no inclusion of the phrase "unless the runner is trying to return," so how is LBA not available in ASA, (regardless of what the runner is doing)?

Heck - with both you and grey telling me I'm wrong, I admit that regarding the LBA I might be mixing rulecodes again... I'll look it up again when I get home (or will just admit wrongness if Irish chimes in).

[greymule]

Heck - with both you and grey telling me I'm wrong.

You might well be right, mcrowder. It wouldn't be the first time I had a misconception about ASA rules. I admit I don't know how to rule on this play under ASA rules.