How would you rule?

[greymule]

the "fourth out" appeal.

I didn't even think of that. A fourth out appeal is being made on a runner who did not score. I was thinking purely in terms of the missed base/removed force.

After reading, and rereading 5.5, I am convinced that the "NOTE" the end of 5.5.B and 5.5.C are two independent rules.

How do you mean? I'm having a hard time understanding those rules. But remember the case play where, after a runner is tagged out at home for the third out, the batter is put out before reaching 1B. ASA says that the run that had scored earlier counts.

[tcblue13]

I agree with bluezebra. I have to interpret "passing a base" as attempting to reach the next base. An overrun or overslide is not necessarily passing the base especially if the runner is trying like all digdogs to get back to the base she missed. As long as the runner is attempting to rreach that base without any attempt to advance, that play is still on that runner. The force is on

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

I agree with bluezebra. I have to interpret "passing a base" as attempting to reach the next base. An overrun or overslide is not necessarily passing the base especially if the runner is trying like all digdogs to get back to the base she missed. As long as the runner is attempting to rreach that base without any attempt to advance, that play is still on that runner. The force is on

Fine for your interpretation. That, however, is not ASA's interpretation. The runner has achieved the base. There is no force on a runner attempting to return to a base after an overslide, any more than there is for a runner attempting to return to a base after rounding. The runner was merely tagged for being off the base, unless there is an appeal.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

I agree with bluezebra. I have to interpret "passing a base" as attempting to reach the next base. An overrun or overslide is not necessarily passing the base especially if the runner is trying like all digdogs to get back to the base she missed. As long as the runner is attempting to rreach that base without any attempt to advance, that play is still on that runner. The force is on

An overrun or overslide is most DEFINITELY passing the base. How in the world do you overslide or overrun without passing the base?!?!?!

This is not a matter of interpretation ... did the runner (whether on purpose or on accident, whether on the way to the next base or trying to return, and whether at 1st or any other base) PASS the base. If yes, then the force is off - they have PASSED the base.

Even if they are trying to return, the fielder has to tag them or appeal the miss. In ASA, if they are trying to return, they MUST be tagged (LBA not available if they are trying to return), which is consistent with the fact that the force is off by this point.

[greymule]

In ASA, if they are trying to return, they MUST be tagged

That's one of the key points involved in this play. While it's certainly true in OBR that a runner in the vicinity of the base must be tagged, I'm not sure that's the case in ASA (see OP). The case book gives a play where the runner misses home and F2 immediately appeals by touching the plate. No mention of the runner having left the vicinity.

In other words, in the play in the OP, if F4 had (a) stepped on 2B and immediately appealed to the umpire that Baker had missed 2B, or (b) while diving to tag Baker had said, "Ump. He missed 2B," then the appeal would nullify the run. This is only because (the way I understand it, which could be wrong) ASA permits an immediate live-ball appeal at the missed base.

Incidentally, in OBR, the runner at 2B in this play is of course out (tagged off the base), but it's a straight time play with the runner from 3B—not a force. And there is no later appeal for missing the base. The run scores and cannot be nullified. Of course, had Baker advanced to 3B without touching 2B, an appeal at 2B would indeed nullify the run.

The apparent prohibition of a "fourth out" appeal on a runner who has not scored is yet another wrinkle unique to ASA. With their rule change a couple of years ago and the change in ruling on a case play, I don't see how the appeal can be allowed.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

In ASA, if they are trying to return, they MUST be tagged (LBA not available if they are trying to return)

I need to be convinced. Here's my logic:

8-7-G: "The Runner Is Out" - "When a runner fails to touch the intervening base...and the ball is returned to an infielder and properly appealed."

8-7-I Effect 1.2. (for above listed section and others) "(Live Ball Appeal) If properly appealed during a live ball, the runner is out."

POE 1.B. "Appeals" - "Live. In all games an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed..."

Those are ASA rules, in the ASA rule book, specifically talking about LBA, with no inclusion of the phrase "unless the runner is trying to return," so how is LBA not available in ASA, (regardless of what the runner is doing)?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

I need to be convinced. Here's my logic:

8-7-G: "The Runner Is Out" - "When a runner fails to touch the intervening base...and the ball is returned to an infielder and properly appealed."

8-7-I Effect 1.2. (for above listed section and others) "(Live Ball Appeal) If properly appealed during a live ball, the runner is out."

POE 1.B. "Appeals" - "Live. In all games an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed..."

Those are ASA rules, in the ASA rule book, specifically talking about LBA, with no inclusion of the phrase "unless the runner is trying to return," so how is LBA not available in ASA, (regardless of what the runner is doing)?

Heck - with both you and grey telling me I'm wrong, I admit that regarding the LBA I might be mixing rulecodes again... I'll look it up again when I get home (or will just admit wrongness if Irish chimes in).

[greymule]

Heck - with both you and grey telling me I'm wrong.

You might well be right, mcrowder. It wouldn't be the first time I had a misconception about ASA rules. I admit I don't know how to rule on this play under ASA rules.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

I need to be convinced. Here's my logic:

8-7-G: "The Runner Is Out" - "When a runner fails to touch the intervening base...and the ball is returned to an infielder and properly appealed."

8-7-I Effect 1.2. (for above listed section and others) "(Live Ball Appeal) If properly appealed during a live ball, the runner is out."

POE 1.B. "Appeals" - "Live. In all games an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed..."

Those are ASA rules, in the ASA rule book, specifically talking about LBA, with no inclusion of the phrase "unless the runner is trying to return," so how is LBA not available in ASA, (regardless of what the runner is doing)?

You guys need to find some fall ball to work. You're already driving me crazy with all this overthinking the rules.

Why would it say anything about the direction of the runner? If a runner passed the base without touching it, an appeal is available. Would you rule the runner out if s/he were continuing to 3B? What difference does it make where the runner is located (other than safely on the base) when a live-ball appeal is made.

This would only be an issue if the ball became dead. In the OP, the runner was retired, therefore, no longer giving her the right to any base. Live ball appeal or dead ball, the appeal is still available.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You guys need to find some fall ball to work. You're already driving me crazy with all this overthinking the rules.

That's me! I'm good for some thorough over-analyzation about once a month. Soon I'll be on the football board, until spring comes around again, so I'll try not to annoy anyone for a while.

MCrowder - I wasn't trying to bash on anyone - I just like working out stuff in my head (and on my computer) - it gets me in those books, which is always a good thing. The 4th out issues get me every time I re-look at them and start dreaming up situations. Maybe next spring I'll duct tape the rule book, open to that section, to my face while I sleep, in hope of some 4th out rule clarity osmosis.

On a completely unrelated and off-topic note, I finally got the opportunity to work 3-person. I was 1B for the NorCal Men's D Slow Pitch Championship, and it went fantastically, and I loved it. Makes me look forward even more to Nationals. Good stuff.

[Alaska Ump]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

An overrun or overslide is most DEFINITELY passing the base. How in the world do you overslide or overrun without passing the base?!?!?!

Just to take off on a tangent, an overrun and an overslide are not the same thing.

For instance, if the batter tries to stretch a single into a double, but overruns second base and is tagged out before getting back, he is credited with a double. But if a batter tries to stretch a single into a double, but overslides second base and is tagged out before getting back, he is credited with a single. (Or is it the other way around? I always forget.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

How do you mean? I'm having a hard time understanding those rules. But remember the case play where, after a runner is tagged out at home for the third out, the batter is put out before reaching 1B. ASA says that the run that had scored earlier counts.

I agree that there may be a contradiction here, so I'm going to ask the question. Let you know of any response I receive.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I agree that there may be a contradiction here, so I'm going to ask the question. Let you know of any response I receive.

Well, below is the answer I received from ASA:

We, the Deputy Staff, believe you are making Rule 5 section 5 harder than it needs to be. Rule 5 section 5B 1-3 applies to when “ No run shall score if the THIRD out of the inning is the result of….. Rule 5 section 5C applies to a fourth out appeal only. By design the intent has always been to have an appeal process for a runner that had scored but did so without following the rules. The intent of the rule has never been to have the ability to appeal another runner, other than one that had scored, once the third out was recorded. We agree that because the rule change in 2003 added Rule 5 section 5C, the note should have been removed. As it is we believe the note only points out that there can be an appeal after the third out in order to nullify a run and 5C tells you how.

Our casebook play in this situation is correct. Once the third out was recorded on R2 there was no reason for the batter-runner to go all the way to 1B. Another example if R1 was on 3B and R2 on 2B with 2 outs and a ground ball to the infield and they throw R2 out at 3B after R1 scores but before the Batter-runner makes it to 1B (by choice or because they are slow) the intent of the rule is not to give the defense the ability to have a double play thus a 4th out and the run not count.

In your play, Runners on 3B and 1B, two outs. Batted ball to F6 who throws the ball past F4 at second base. R2 continues to, but is thrown out at 3B. However, R2 missed 2B. The defense now throws the ball to F4 who tags 2B and appeals the missed base.

By rule that run would score and rule 5 section 5 B1 does not apply, Rule 5 section 5C applies. Since R2 was thrown out at 3B for the third out the chance to appeal the runner missing 2B has gone by the way side.