LL Softball on ESPN, MI vs TX

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

WOW, now THAT'S a generalization if I've ever heard one. I've had tons of training (not that it's done me any good) and I do LL as well as NF and NCAA. I know of probably a dozen college umpires that volunteer for LL as well as literally every NF umpire in our local board! In 2004 I did a LL Regional and many of those umpires did other levels of umpiring as well.

I had a boss that used to say, "All generalizations, including this one, are false."

I was trying to point out that we might be unfair holding the umpires in a few TV shots to the NCAA/ASA/NFHS mechanics because
1) "as I remember from years ago and a few recent observations"; many are volunteers who are there as recognition of their ability and
2) I don't remember any mechanics training at the league, district or state levels and
3) the mechanics might be different.
Thanks for stating the other side of the coin, and please correct me if my perceptions are no longer the norm.
I frequently work with an umpire who is highly skilled and I think LLWS or Regional level, who does not adjust to NFHS mechanics or practices; and is apparently used to not having structured mechanics.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

WOW, now THAT'S a generalization if I've ever heard one. I've had tons of training (not that it's done me any good) and I do LL as well as NF and NCAA. I know of probably a dozen college umpires that volunteer for LL as well as literally every NF umpire in our local board! In 2004 I did a LL Regional and many of those umpires did other levels of umpiring as well.

I had a boss that used to say, "All generalizations, including this one, are false."

I think C-one is referring to those who only work LL as volunteers and only receive training when the district brings someone in for a clinic.

Many go out and find training on their own and that is not a bad thing. I've offered the school to LL assns. for the cost of a registration. Though some may be interested, the local LL assn. often kills it because they do not care for the outside influence. Personally, I think this happens in many youth organizations. They do not want anyone from the "outside" to taint the way things are in their little realm.

The one person I have come over from LL three years ago, worked his first ASA national this year. He expected to be intimidated by some, but realized his training far exceeded that of many of the umpires with years of experience 5-fold or better, and he excelled. Of course, I started him out with an extremely good umpire.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The one person I have come over from LL three years ago, worked his first ASA national this year. He expected to be intimidated by some, but realized his training far exceeded that of many of the umpires with years of experience 5-fold or better, and he excelled. Of course, I started him out with an extremely good umpire.

It's good to know you found one to work with him.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I was trying to point out that we might be unfair holding the umpires in a few TV shots to the NCAA/ASA/NFHS mechanics because
1) "as I remember from years ago and a few recent observations"; many are volunteers who are there as recognition of their ability and
2) I don't remember any mechanics training at the league, district or state levels and
3) the mechanics might be different.
Thanks for stating the other side of the coin, and please correct me if my perceptions are no longer the norm.
I frequently work with an umpire who is highly skilled and I think LLWS or Regional level, who does not adjust to NFHS mechanics or practices; and is apparently used to not having structured mechanics.

OK, now I think that's a valid point. Yes, we do have umpires in our area that are virtually untrained and they do struggle. Having been to the regional level and hoping to work the WS next year, I know they would get eaten alive at regionals. I do know in our district, we've had the Southern Region come in and do mechanics, but their mechanics ARE very different (as you pointed out). That's one of the things about LL that pisses me off. They think their way is THE way. Also in our district, our UIC and I have gone to several different leagues and held mechanics training for their league umpires. You perceptions are what they are - your perceptions. In your area that is probably correct and some of the things we see on TV do nothing to dispute that. I was simply pointing out that it is somewhat different than that in my area.

Speaking of mechanics, here's something to watch. LL wants the umpire's head heighth to be NO lower than the chin at the top of the catcher's helmet. That's the very lowest they want. I'm watching the Japan/Russia game and this guy is like a foot higher than that. Personally, I think that's too high. I think that hurts calling the outside corners. Do you think that's too high too?

[Steve M]

"The one person I have come over from LL three years ago, worked his first ASA national this year. He expected to be intimidated by some, but realized his training far exceeded that of many of the umpires with years of experience 5-fold or better, and he excelled. Of course, I started him out with an extremely good umpire."

Thanks, Mike. Like I said there, you could use him in a text book. He's very good right now and is only going to get better. He asks good questions, listens, thinks, and then applies.

[CecilOne]

If you have nothing better to do, you might want to read this "base"ball topic on LLWS umpires:
Little League umpire in the regionals

In spite of the poster, Mike.

[WestMichBlue]

I watched parts of both the MI vs TX and MI vs NJ games, with most of my time watching (and critiquing) the umpires. The call at 2B was terrible; obvious obstruction, but Blue was in the wrong position.

On a tag play at 3B Blue was in foul territory, 2B to 3B line extended. No way could he see when the tag was applied.

On two plays at home F2 did a MLB block of home plate; I would have called obstruction even in the days of "about to receive." But they did not.

I have noticed this year, and in years past that the PU generally looks excellent (on TV). This makes sense from my personal observations from attending the Big League World Series in Kalamazoo the last few years. To me it appears that the majority of umpires are being honored for their many years of service. Which is consistent with Little League’s philosophy of volunteerism and equal participation.

However, it seems that a highly qualified umpire is appointed to the UIC position. This has been very evident in Kalamazoo; as it should be, for Big League is a high level of play. These girls are high school stars, all-state or all-something; play on high level travel teams, and many are college bound. So at least they get someone behind the plate that is capable of calling balls and strikes at that level.

BTW – anyone here had the opportunity to be on national television to be evaluated by thousands of recliner umpires?


WMB

[Chess Ref]

My first question is did the Kalamazoo have to play their way in ? Or were they there because they were the host team ?

I am enjoying all the hitting that is going on. We had the out /safe call made by the 2B ump in the 4th inng. I like the homeplate umps strikezone.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

My first question is did the Kalamazoo have to play their way in ? Or were they there because they were the host team ?

The host team is automatically entered into the WS pool. However, after that, they still have to play against all the other regional winners from both the US and the foreign entries. And Kalamazoo more than holds their own. They won this year; they have won a couple times in the past, and are usually in the final game, or close to being in.

Actually, the best team in the tournament this year (Grand Rapids) beat Kzo in pool play, but lost a tie-breaker between themselves, Kzo, and Conn. We play some pretty good softball in West Michigan; Kzo and GR have won this tournament several times in the last 7 or 8 years - and that means consistantly beating the warm weather teams (West, SW, SE) from CA, TX, FL, etc. The only other teams that seem to win a title are from the East coast (Conn, Maryland).

WMB

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

My first question is did the Kalamazoo have to play their way in ? Or were they there because they were the host team ?

I am enjoying all the hitting that is going on. We had the out /safe call made by the 2B ump in the 4th inng. I like the homeplate umps strikezone.

I didn't get to watch it yet - DVR! There is a bunch of inequity on the girls side of the WS. No, Kalamazoo didn't have to play their way into the WS and the other MI team in the tournament didn't have to play their way into the regional. In the past, the host team has been allowed to enter if there is an odd number of teams so they would have an even bracket. This year, there were 9 teams including Kalamazoo. They were a good team though (beat the crap out of our girls). We lost to D9 from MI 1-0 on a first inning error and lost to Conn 1-0 in 11. The team from D9 was (from reports I got) the best team there when their stud was on the mound.

I heard the umpires were not as good this year as they have been in the past. Were you there at all WMB? The reports I got from several people were that their strike zones were similar to those in Williamsport!

[JefferMC]

To get just a bit off topic, our local league switched to Babe Ruth this year, and my daugther's team played in the SE Regional. In looking at the backgrounds of the teams I noticed that the BR VA state champion was given a WS (also to be held 20 miles away in VA) slot, the second place team was the host team for the SE Regional so the third place team played in the SE Regional as the VA state champion. Well, I thought, having the state champion as the host team for the WS sounds reasonable.

Wrong; the WS had both the VA state champion AND the local VA host team (who was NOT in the top three VA teams). They played in different pools. The VA state champion did pretty well. The SE Regional winner won the whole thing (and didn't lose a game). However, I don't think the local VA team won a game, so I was questioning the value of them even being there. (Okay, yes, I know, home team fans buy more tickets, but...)

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

To get just a bit off topic, our local league switched to Babe Ruth this year, and my daugther's team played in the SE Regional. In looking at the backgrounds of the teams I noticed that the BR VA state champion was given a WS (also to be held 20 miles away in VA) slot, the second place team was the host team for the SE Regional so the third place team played in the SE Regional as the VA state champion. Well, I thought, having the state champion as the host team for the WS sounds reasonable.

Wrong; the WS had both the VA state champion AND the local VA host team (who was NOT in the top three VA teams). They played in different pools. The VA state champion did pretty well. The SE Regional winner won the whole thing (and didn't lose a game). However, I don't think the local VA team won a game, so I was questioning the value of them even being there. (Okay, yes, I know, home team fans buy more tickets, but...)

There's no charge for the BL WS. Neither of the teams from MI even played in the MI state tournament. The MI state champ went to the regional and got beat. The host team from MI won and went to the WS and got beat. The host team for the WS didn't play a single game this year until the WS and won. Good team? Yep! Legal by LL standards - not even close on a bad day!

[argodad]

During my elliptical machine workout this afternoon, I watched part of the “Big League World Series” championship game on ESPN2. This is LL’s 18U division. The field was bad (grass infield), the softball was bad (mid 16U level, IMHO), and the umpiring was bad. We bashed some of the guys on the baseball LL World Series crew, but they were pros compared to what I saw today.

For example, U2 made a solid out call on an attempted force at second (as the ball rolled across the grass infield). OK, maybe he was blocked. But after he changed his out to safe, he gave a sweeping “off the bag” gesture. U3 made a beautiful sell-safe call on a girl sliding into third – as the ball went four feet over F3’s glove and into left field.

And what is this “double-pump” sell safe mechanic? (A “book” sell-safe is followed by bringing the hands back together, then back to the safe position – sometimes repeated a third time.) More than one LL umpire used it. Is this a baseball mechanic? Do you use it in your part of the country? (I kinda like it, but I don’t think it would fly with our Florida UICs.)

On the other hand, you’ve got to hand it to Little League for getting their sports televised. Nobody even comes close in baseball or softball.

[I'mOklahoma!]

WMB, I'm not sure if you can answer this or not, but does this WS rotate foul line umpires during the game?

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by argodad

This is LL’s 18U division. The field was bad (grass infield), the softball was bad (mid 16U level, IMHO), and the umpiring was bad. We bashed some of the guys on the baseball LL World Series crew, but they were pros compared to what I saw today.

1 - the field was not "bad," it is different. Softball on a grass infield is weird, but they have been doing it this way for years. You would think that slap hitters would have a field day with the slow infield, but I am not sure it makes a big difference.

2. Note that LL Softball changed age requirements this year to line up with other summer softball organizations (Age as of 12/31). So the players are college players, just graduated seniors and a couple seniors to be.

3. Mid 16U level? You've got to be kidding! Half the GR (Div 9) squad are college bound; their top ones are heading to Div 1. The pitcher of a winning State Champion High School team this spring was not good enough to pitch on this team, though she is heading Div 1 on a SB scholarship. At least three girls pitched on winning state champions in the last two years. Several are All-State selections. One of the girls, a senior to be, has interest from all over the country; a CA travel team picked her up to play in tournaments out west this summer. Others played on national level travel teams. These kids can play ball!

4. Bad umpiring? Did you read my prior post about rewarding LL umpires at national tournaments. Sure they are not necessarily the best, but the PU usually is top notch.

Originally Posted by I'mOklahoma!

WMB, I'm not sure if you can answer this or not, but does this WS rotate foul line umpires during the game?

I did not go this year; I had plans to be in Detroit and when our local team lost out at the end I chose not to change my plans. But in the past I thought maybe some of the umpires changed. Maybe the bases, maybe just the outfield. Can't say for sure.

WMB