Another Obstruction play...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I can't tell from the OP "F3 standing on insde corner of first base watching F7 field the ball. BR has to take a wide turn around first to avoid F3. My left arm goes out for OBS. BR rounds first and stops to find the ball" whether the BR is impeded before or after reaching 1st.
If after, let's talk.

HTBT, but just as much of that "wide turn" probably came after touching the base than before, so, in my judgment, part of the act of OBS came between 1B & 2B.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

HTBT, but just as much of that "wide turn" probably came after touching the base than before, so, in my judgment, part of the act of OBS came between 1B & 2B.

That's why I asked.

[Andy]

Mike and mcrowder have pretty much captured my thinking process.

Obstuction has been a personal POE for me for the last year or so. I felt like I was missing too many calls and not ruling properly on the ones I did call. This call in particular, at first base on a hit, has been part of my focus.

This was a B level tournament, so it is entirely possible that the player had not been coached properly to get away from the bag on a hit, then come in behind the runner for a possible throw.

In most cases on this call, nothing is going to happen, and few will even notice the arm out for OBS. On this particular play, somebody noticed and it resulted in a play I had to make a ruling on. I'm comfortable with my ruling on the field.

I posted here to bring attention to this type of OBS, because I notice a lot of umpires on a base hit are lazy about getting into the infield and making the pivot to watch the BR touch first and pick up this particular type of OBS.

[IRISHMAFIA]

There is no reason an umpire should NOT call OBS when s/he sees it. The old "well, she wasn't going anywhere anyway" BS is a cop-out and not worthy of discussion.

You see it, you call it. We are not mindreaders. None of us really KNOW what's going to happen next. We know what SHOULD happen next, but when that doesn't happen is when we end up posting the play here.

Too many umpires think the "if I don't see it, I don't have to rule on it" attitude gets them by. Another weak excuse for not doing the job. These guys/gals forget that there is no requirement to move runners or make a game-deciding decision, just review the play in your mind and place a runner where you believe they would have advanced/retreated had the OBS not occured.

To the other extreme, you have guys out there looking for a reason to penalize a player. You have umpires thinking "What a putz. I'll teach him not to block the base and give the runner an extra base. Ha! That'll show'em."

Give me a break. This rule is not that hard to recognize or apply. Yeah, there may be a TWP that will require a little extra exercise of the gray matter, but that's why we get paid.

JMHO

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Andy

... snip ... I posted here to bring attention to this type of OBS, because I notice a lot of umpires on a base hit are lazy about getting into the infield and making the pivot to watch the BR touch first and pick up this particular type of OBS.

As PU, I'm watching the BR until I know the BU has a good angle, unless I'm occupied with a ball hit to left or lead runners.


edited from PU to BU

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

As PU, I'm watching the BR until I know the PU has a good angle, unless I'm occupied with a ball hit to left or lead runners.

Wow, you have enough umpires to assign two guys to the plate on each game? I'm impressed

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Wow, you have enough umpires to assign two guys to the plate on each game? I'm impressed

One for balls/strikes, one for runners and checking bats. The question is whether there is also any BU.

[LIIRISHMAN]

We are under USSSA rules. Obstruction for U-Trip is automatically next base.That makes me caustious to call obstruction on a play like the orignal post. How can I call it when I know in my head that the B/R wouldn't have made 2nd anyway.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

HTBT, but just as much of that "wide turn" probably came after touching the base than before, so, in my judgment, part of the act of OBS came between 1B & 2B.

I agree, but the reason for my question (about the arm being still out after rounding 1B) was that the arm was now signalling to the coach that the runner was still protected. Hence, the correct call was made (protecting the runner).

I know that the arm being dropped does NOT mean the protection is dropped, but if the arm is still out, it means protection is still in force.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I agree, but the reason for my question (about the arm being still out after rounding 1B) was that the arm was now signalling to the coach that the runner was still protected. Hence, the correct call was made (protecting the runner).

I know that the arm being dropped does NOT mean the protection is dropped, but if the arm is still out, it means protection is still in force.

No - the arm has nothing to do with whether protection is on or off. You leave the DDB signal up long enough for everyone (who's looking) has time to see it, and then you drop it. Dropping it has nothing to do with any of your decisions regarding protection. The arm signal merely means that you have a delayed dead ball (it is, after all, the DDB signal, not the OBS signal). It is conceivable that you could have your arm still out on a play briefly after the runner has outrun her protection - so saying "if the arm is still out it means protection is still in force" is just not correct.

Heck - under your logic, if you were protecting to home plate on an apparent ITPHR, you'd have to leave your arm up while the runner slogs around from 1st to home.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

No - the arm has nothing to do with whether protection is on or off. You leave the DDB signal up long enough for everyone (who's looking) has time to see it, and then you drop it. Dropping it has nothing to do with any of your decisions regarding protection. The arm signal merely means that you have a delayed dead ball (it is, after all, the DDB signal, not the OBS signal). It is conceivable that you could have your arm still out on a play briefly after the runner has outrun her protection - so saying "if the arm is still out it means protection is still in force" is just not correct.

Heck - under your logic, if you were protecting to home plate on an apparent ITPHR, you'd have to leave your arm up while the runner slogs around from 1st to home.

I didn't mean it to be a technicality... but if the arm is still out half way to the next base, what is the umpire telling the players / coaches?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I didn't mean it to be a technicality... but if the arm is still out half way to the next base, what is the umpire telling the players / coaches?

That something happened (probably OBS ... but conceivably something else) that caused a delayed dead ball, at some point within the past 2-3 seconds or so. Beyond that ... nothing. The length of time that you leave the arm up should be the same on every play (barring, of course, the necessity to use your left arm for something else during that time, like a safe call), and should have nothing to do with protection being on or off.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

The length of time that you leave the arm up should be the same on every play (barring, of course, the necessity to use your left arm for something else during that time, like a safe call), and should have nothing to do with protection being on or off.

I don't necessarily agree with that. If the runner or BR makes it safely to the base I would have awarded them the OBS would be ignored, correct? At that point I'd drop my arm.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

I don't necessarily agree with that. If the runner or BR makes it safely to the base I would have awarded them the OBS would be ignored, correct? At that point I'd drop my arm.

You are operating under a misconception.

The arm signal merely states that you have witnessed something that caused a delayed dead ball. It should be left up ONLY long enough (2-3 seconds is plenty) so that others have time to see your signal. This is not the "I have the runner currently protected" signal, nor is it the OBS signal. Dropping your arm does not and should not signify ANYTHING, and certainly shouldn't indicated that your protection has ended.

Picture an infield hit where F1 OBS's the runner a step or so prior to first base, but you are only going to award and protect to first base. Do you shoot the arm out and quickly put it back down 2 steps later (perhaps half a second)? That looks ridiculous. Make the signal, and drop it after a couple of seconds.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I know that the arm being dropped does NOT mean the protection is dropped, but if the arm is still out, it means protection is still in force.

I thought the arm was just the DDB signal telling everyone that play will be killed as soon as playing action stops. It has nothing to do with the actual obstruction call. A release IP gets the arm as well doesn't it??