Batter hit after swing

[Hoosier_Dave]

1. The batter had squared to bunt when pitcher started her motion. Ball was low. Batter was trying to follow pitch down to bunt. In my opinion, she was trying to bunt it. The ball hit her in the foot before she could make contact. Still same call?

2. Where is unsportsmanlike conduct covered in the rules?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_Dave

1. The batter had squared to bunt when pitcher started her motion. Ball was low. Batter was trying to follow pitch down to bunt. In my opinion, she was trying to bunt it. The ball hit her in the foot before she could make contact. Still same call?

2. Where is unsportsmanlike conduct covered in the rules?

1. You've removed the "tried to avoid" part and added an "offer" at the pitch. This is a dead ball strike.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_Dave

2. Where is unsportsmanlike conduct covered in the rules?

You're kidding, right? Speaking ASA, it is referenced throughout the rules as necessary. USC is umpire's judgment. There is no definitive rule to determine what is or isn't USC.

If you need a written rule to define USC before enforcing it, well, nevermind.

[Hoosier_Dave]

Don't bash me too much. I haven't had the rules book very long. I'm used to football rules that has a specific section for conduct of players and specifically defines USC. Also, football clinics specifically spell out what is and is not taunting.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_Dave

Don't bash me too much. I haven't had the rules book very long. I'm used to football rules that has a specific section for conduct of players and specifically defines USC. Also, football clinics specifically spell out what is and is not taunting.

Let me ask you this: If a football player did something you considered compeltely disgusting and an act of unsportsmanlike conduct that wasn't listed anywhere or mentioned in any clinic, would you ignore it or throw the flag?

[HawkeyeCubP]

Not trying to get myself berated here - but this is similar to the verbal obstruction/disconcertion/USC thread I started last week.

What Hoosier is getting at is that literally everything you could drum up as far as being possible USC in NFHS football (and basketball) is usually specifically addressed either in the Rule Book, the Case Book, or, as things come up, in the Points of Emphasis and Rule Changes from year to year, and if not specifically addressed, can be easily fit into the constraints of something that is defined or described in said sections as USC, flagrant misconduct, etc. And not to desparage ASA (I love it, and it sounds like what the powers that be are in the process of doing is going to be great, in terms of changing and revising the rule book) these are things that are largely currently lacking in the ASA Rule and Case Book.

(This is me cringing as I await the responses from the strongly "anti-specifying" posters.)

Understand, also, that I only work ASA slow pitch, so I am admittedly uneducated on what NFHS softball policies and rules are, other than what I learn here. And perhaps that is why ASA operates the way it does, and doesn't put out a case book every year, etc.

[Aside: That being said, in my lowly opinion, I have to say that the ASA Rule Book and ASA Umpire Tests are, by far, and unfortunately, the worst among themselves and their NFHS football and basketball counterparts, especially in terms of mispelling (test), grammar (test), index referencing (rule book), and outdated material (rule book) (and the Case Book leaves a lot to be desired as well, in terms of being far too brief in certain areas). I suppose that is a topic for another thread, however. Just FYI, I feel bad even typing that. Not sure why.]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Actually, much of ASA's rules are intentionally generic. It took years to develop the rule book to get it where it is and that's fine by me. Every little possibility cannot be addressed. There are umpires who work the highest level ball that do not know some of the basic rules applications even with the book as it stands. What would it be like if many of the rules for everything including the "it could happen once every other decade" application were included?

Rant on!

Last year at the Hooters, in his clinic, Bernie went over a few rules including the old standard about a runner leaving 1B early and being between 2B & 3B when the outfielder releases the ball which goes out of play and the bases awarded. Out of the 15 Elite umpires, only one got it right. Even after reviewing the different possible answers, only one stood on the initial correct response. Happy to say, that umpire frequents this board daily. Two years ago, Bernie was irate because less than half the Elite umpires couldn't properly execute a overhand out.

Yes, ASA leaves a lot to interpretation and judgment. That's why there are clinics. For some of you folks in areas that do not hold regular clinics, that puts you at a disadvantage. For those of you who have UICs that do not attend the National Clinics or spend more time in the hotel bar than the break-out sessions, that puts you at a disadvantage. For those of you who have UICs which don't follow what is going on in the ASA world and just don't believe that a rule change was for real so they do not instruct the umpires in their area to call it, that puts you at a disadvantage. For those of you who live in an area where "schools" are not offered, that puts you at a disadvantage and often, it affects veteran umpires who attend a National School and, in turn, places them at a disadvantage.

Last year I received a call from an umpire who wanted to know if it was worth going to a regional clinic featuring Craig Cress and Kevin Ryan. I told the umpire that he will get the same rule changes and interpretations that I will offer at the state clinic, but this clinic gives you the opportunity to discuss the issues with people who are in a position to alter any problems or shortcomings if found. Turned out this umpire didn't go to the regional clinic, but didn't attend the state clinic either.

The problem is that there are too many umpires like the one above who is less worried about knowledge and performance and more about their wallet. Don't get me wrong, I understand that is a serious issue and problem with many people in this country. The problem is that many of these umpires, including veterans, do not attend the clinics that are available. Even when some do, Old Sam prefers to hang in the back of the hall and hold their own little mini-clinics and tell war stories instead of paying attention to the person offering the most recent information from Oklahoma City. Please note, I never charge anyone for a rules clinic, unless it's a coach/player who wants it on the field during a game.

Yes, I know this doesn't happen everywhere, but it happens enough and I'm not just talking about ASA.

Rant off!

Meanwhile, I have no problem with ASA's test and I do take it without the book. Are there some vague questions in it? Damn right. Do you know why?

Obviously, I'm biased in my assessment, but then again, that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[CecilOne]

I guess I would award home for "runner leaving 1B early and being between 2B & 3B when the outfielder releases the ball which goes out of play" and then hope for the appeal out at 1st. But every season, I have to check on which rules allow returning to tag on a dead ball and which don't.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...Out of the 15 Elite umpires, only one got it right. Even after reviewing the different possible answers, only one stood on the initial correct response. Happy to say, that umpire frequents this board daily....

Bet I can guess who that umpire is, too!

[rwest]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Last year at the Hooters, in his clinic, Bernie went over a few rules including the old standard about a runner leaving 1B early and being between 2B & 3B when the outfielder releases the ball which goes out of play and the bases awarded. Out of the 15 Elite umpires, only one got it right. Even after reviewing the different possible answers, only one stood on the initial correct response. Happy to say, that umpire frequents this board daily.

This seems simple to me. Am I missing something obvious? You award the runner home on the overthrow, but the runner must complete his baserunning responsibilities by returning to touch 1b, and touching second both on his way back and on his way to third and home.

This brings up a few questions.

Do you wait a few seconds to see if the runner returns to 1st before awarding home? If so, isn't that giving away something? Or do you just award the runner the 2 bases and watch to see if he returns?

Also, once a runner has advanced to the next awarded base, they can not return to touch a missed base or a base left too soon. So what if they do return even when by rule they can't? Do you say anything or just remain quiet? Since they are not allowed to return, the appeal is still on. I believe if I say something that would be giving the defense an advantage.

[Dakota]

Hawkeye, first of all, you cannot compare NFHS anything with general amateur rule books in matters dealing with USC and misbehavior. Generic amateur rule books (and their associated interpretation publications) deal with everything from little kids to adults. NFHS deals exclusively with school children. That difference is not just in matters of age; it is also in the school's role of in loco parentis. The NFHS softball rule book goes into more detail on USC and behavior issues than does the ASA rule book, but from what you are saying, still probably waaaaayyy less detail than the NFHS football book.

Having said all of that, two things... the frequency of grammatical, word usage, and syntax errors in ASA publications is a matter of somewhat regular discussion here. Hang around.

Second, the ASA rules interpretations publications (Case Book, POEs, clinic teaching material, umpire manual, etc.) are light years ahead of the NFHS Softball publications in terms of both detailed rulings and depth of situations covered. The NFHS POEs are particularly meager to the point of complete uselessness.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Hawkeye, first of all, you cannot compare NFHS anything with general amateur rule books in matters dealing with USC and misbehavior. Generic amateur rule books (and their associated interpretation publications) deal with everything from little kids to adults. NFHS deals exclusively with school children. That difference is not just in matters of age; it is also in the school's role of in loco parentis. The NFHS softball rule book goes into more detail on USC and behavior issues than does the ASA rule book, but from what you are saying, still probably waaaaayyy less detail than the NFHS football book.

Having said all of that, two things... the frequency of grammatical, word usage, and syntax errors in ASA publications is a matter of somewhat regular discussion here. Hang around.

Second, the ASA rules interpretations publications (Case Book, POEs, clinic teaching material, umpire manual, etc.) are light years ahead of the NFHS Softball publications in terms of both detailed rulings and depth of situations covered. The NFHS POEs are particularly meager to the point of complete uselessness.

Also, as far as other sports go, there is much more close contact between players in BB and FB, also much more fan "contact"; so more detailed descriptions are needed. Sports like golf and tennis require less; and the descriptions for soccer ar much broader.