Scoring question from an umpire

[mcrowder]

Yes, I know, scoring questions are not generally for umpires, but I figured that with the amount of intelligent people out there, someone would be able to answer this...

In the event of an advantageous 4th out (assume continuous play), does the combination of the 3rd and 4th out on the same play count in the statistics as a "double play"?

[gsf23]

I couldn't find a softball specific example so I am hoping the baseball example is the same.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In baseball, the fourth out is a legal out made by the defense after three outs in a half-inning already have been recorded. According to the rules, the third out does not cause the ball to become dead. If the fielders make a subsequent out that prevents a run from scoring, this out will supercede the apparent third out, thus becoming the recorded third out. For statistical purposes, the apparent third out is "undone" and the fourth out's result is recorded instead.


Examples
The situations where a fourth out may be recorded are exceedingly rare, but some examples follow:

Example: An appeal force out
Suppose bases are loaded with two outs, and the batter hits a single. The runner from third base touches home, scoring easily. The runner from second base touches third and attempts to score, but is thrown out at home plate. Meanwhile, the runner from first base, on his way to third base, misses second base. Now we have three outs, and one run scored. RULING: The fielders have a viable appeal play at second base. If they are alert enough and understand the rules regarding fourth outs, they may make a live ball appeal that the runner missed second base. If such an appeal is made, the runner from first base is out on a force out, because he failed to touch his force base (second base). Since no run may score on a play where the final out of the half-inning is a force out, this out prevents the runner from third from scoring. Thus the runner from third is marked as left on base and his apparent run does not count; the runner from second is also left on base, and his out is nullifed; only the runner from first is out on the appeal force out, which now becomes the actual third out.


Example: A non-appeal out
Suppose there are runners on second and third base with two outs, and the batter hits a ground ball to third base. The runner from third scores, but the runner from second base is tagged out for the third out. Since the runner from third reached home plate before the third out was recorded, and the third out was not a force out or on the batter-runner before reaching first base, we seem to have three outs and a run scored. However, suppose that the batter-runner fell down on his way to first base and was injured, unable to walk. Then suppose that the fielders throw to first or tag the batter out. Since no run can score if the last out is made on the batter before he reaches first base, this fourth out prevents a run from scoring. Thus the runner from third is marked as left on base and his apparent run does not count; the runner from second is also left on base and his out is nullified; the batter-runner is out, which now becomes the actual third out.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_out"

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Yes, I know, scoring questions are not generally for umpires, but I figured that with the amount of intelligent people out there, someone would be able to answer this...

In the event of an advantageous 4th out (assume continuous play), does the combination of the 3rd and 4th out on the same play count in the statistics as a "double play"?

NO. The "Fourth Out" is only a figure of speech. Technically, and by rule, there can only be three outs in any half inning.

Bob

[debeau]

The 4th out can be recorded if it is to cancel a run

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by debeau

The 4th out can be recorded if it is to cancel a run

It might seem like the 4th out, but according to scoring it is not. The old 3rd out is ignored in the scorebook and the 4th out is recorded as the new 3rd out.

We used to refer to it as the "more advantage 3rd out", which is consistent what what gsf23 noted above.

[debeau]

Oh
As an Umpire its a 4th out .
Additional out appeals may be made after the third out as long as it is made properly and are made to remove a run .
But as a scorer I suppose thats how its done