Asking for help? What's the deal here?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Justme

... The fact that it pi$$ed you guys off is your problem..not mine.

You're not getting this, are you? You post baseball situations, one of which has absolutely no application to softball, and when that is pointed out, you cloak youself in the self-righteous egocentric insulting cover and claim that the poster who pointed out YOUR error is stupid, and then start accusing others of being immature and offended?

Who are you trying to kid?

BTW, you still haven't admitted that there was more wrong with your post that merely using the word "balk." Editing it out was nice, but ... it was not a mere "oversight" as you claim, since you originally defended it as just having the word wrong, saying anyone who could not figure this out was stupid.

Many umpires here also work both sports, but there is an obligation to know the rules of both. If you continue to view softball as baseball with changes, you'll continue to have problems with understanding the game. JMO.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by Dakota

In somebody's strange world, this is not considered arrogant and disdainful, let alone personal and insulting. Somehow, through no fault of our local baseball umpire, I became personal. Right.

Dakota; Mcrowder; AltUmpSteve:

I went back and re-read every post............. I hate to say this but............. the objective evidence points to........................................ me as the quilty party when it comes to starting the insults ............................ Now I am preparing some crow....................... I hope that it's tasty

The realization that today I have been the one who was too sensitive........... Isn't an easy pill for me to swallow..................but along with my crow I guess I must swallow the pill too................... I hate it when that happens...............

Okay........... here it comes ........ I'm sorry that I picked a fight with you guys.

But I still think that "most" of the information I provided is applicable to softball (just over-look the balk part).............PEACE

[SRW]

Originally Posted by Andy

When a coach comes and asks me to "go for help" on a call I have made, the first thing I will say is "Coach, why are you asking me to get help?" If the response is anything like:

"She slid under the tag!"
"The ball beat her to the base!"
"Your partner had a better angle!"
etc, etc...all of these statements are just another way of saying "your call is wrong"
My response is "Coach, it's my call, I made it, let's play."

If the coach comes out with a statement like:

"She dropped the ball"
"She pulled her foot"
Or any other statement that indicates that s/he saw something I may have missed, I will call my partner over and get his/her input.

Of course, after I have talked to my partner, it's up to me to stay with or change my call.

I like this thought process. Once we've decided to go to our partner for help, we've been trained up here in Seattle to ask our partner a very specific question: "Did you see anything different that would make me change my call?" Direct and to the point.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Justme

Dakota; ...I'm sorry...PEACE

Apology accepted. Thanks. That speaks highly of you.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Justme

The rules of softball are not that different from baseball. Sure there are differences but there are many more similarities. Does it bother you that I, primarily a baseball umpire, work softball games? In our HS association we have several umpires working both sports.

I'll first apologize for the namecalling, delete your understandable response, and get back to the actual topic. Although I do feel compelled to say that the only reason the "balk" part was focused on was because that was completely false, even if you accept your initial suggestion that we, the readers, should merely replace the word balk with "illegal pitch". The two terms, while similar, are used interchangeably by those folks completely unfamiliar with softball rules, when in fact any umpire worth his salt knows they are very different things.

You start with a comment here that DOES bother me a lot - "The rules of softball are not that different from baseball." It bothers me because it gives the entirely wrong idea to those out there that think they know baseball rules, therefore they know softball rules. They ARE different in many significant ways.

It does not bother me AT ALL that a primarily baseball umpire works softball games. (I work both about equally, by the way). What DOES bother me (and most umpires) is that a primarily baseball umpire works softball games with a host of misconceptions based on their baseball upbringing. You obviously feel that the differences in the rules are minimal, which leads me to the conclusion that you probably shouldn't be on the softball field.

Because an umpire works primarily one sport or the other doesn't detract from their ability.

It does if they do not acknowledge or understand that the sports are different.

Just like the rest of the umpire's working softball I still hustle into position; I still use the proper mechanics;

Great - I applaud you, and wish all umpires took pride in their hustle and mechanics.

I enforce the the same rules

Ah, we're back off track again. These sports do NOT have the same rules. And it's obviously (from other threads and this one) the case that your understanding of the rules and their differences is most lacking on the softball side.

What I am lacking and what the other members in our association are lacking is the apparent animosity that exists between softball/baseball umpires on this board.

I have no such animosity (if I did, I don't know which side I'd be forced to take!). You've misread my animosity, which is actually toward baseball umpires who quote baseball rules to apply to softball situations OR VICE VERSA, or umpires who walk on the field without knowing the rules.

I'll end with an apology for the "idiot" comment once again. It was uncalled for, and an overreaction on my part. Sorry bout that. You can see you struck a nerve - my bad for letting it push me into namecalling.

Now ... let's all go play dominos.

[Skahtboi]

Suddenly, I feel overcome with warmfuzzies!!!!

[Justme]

NCAA Softball Umpire Improvement Program
Umpire Manual
(Including - Instructions for NCAA Umpire Manual Updates – 2006)

SECTION 7
B — Going for Help
The first requisite of an umpire is to ultimately get all decisions correct. But who will judge that the final decision is, in fact, the correct one?

If a call is changed from what it was originally, a different faction will now disagree with the modified call. Because of this, it is paramount that umpires do everything possible to make the correct decision initially and not have to change a call.

To substantially raise the odds of making a correct decision umpires have only to do their
job–every game, every play, every pitch. What this means is:

• You must know where you want to go.
• You must hustle to get there ahead of the play.
• You must be set for the play.
• You must adjust if the play develops differently.
• You must hold your decision until the play is completely over.
• You must move to your next position whether the play goes there or not.

Constantly and continually using the proven techniques for umpires will put, the overwhelming majority of the time, the umpire in a position to see the play more accurately than anyone else on the field. It is the nature of the game that whatever call an umpire makes, someone will disagree with it. Don’t sell yourself short! If you have gotten close enough to the play, gotten a desirable angle, clearly seen the action, and lack no necessary information needed for a decision, then why would you even entertain the thought that one of your partners, who was certainly farther away, probably had a worse angle, and definitely wasn’t looking to make the call, could see the play better than you.

Umpires are not to seek help on plays on which they are 100 percent confident in their judgment and view of the play. Have the conviction to stay with a call that you believe was made properly.

Going for help should not destroy the credibility of umpires and negate the value of a multiple umpire system. Do not go for help to pacify a coach or to be a nice guy. This is a cop-out and is disrespectful of yourself, other umpires, the coach, and the game itself. There are times, both by rule and circumstance, that an umpire will need to seek help on a call.

Umpires must get help on the following:

• A misinterpretation of a rule.
• When asked by the catcher on a checked swing called a ball.
• On a pickoff attempt when asked by a coach.
• When two umpires make different calls on the same play.
Umpires are explicitly advised and strongly urged to seek help on the following:
• When they are missing, or could be missing, crucial information needed to make an accurate judgment.
• When they have doubt.
• When doubt is created.

If you are missing a piece of information necessary to making a call, go to your partner, unsolicited, prior to rendering any decision. Ask your partner what you need to know: “Did she have the bag?” “Was the ball dropped/bobbled?” Your partner will respond with a verbal answer to your question. You then follow with the final call and signal for the play. If doubt is created immediately after making your call, then, again unsolicited, go to your partner for the information you need. If, after making your call and playing action has ceased, you are asked to get some help and you have doubt, (e.g., a part of the play you did not see as clearly as you would have liked and could have missed a crucial element), then ask your partner for assistance.

Keep in mind that some calls cannot be reversed after playing action without creating larger problems like where to place runners and determining what would have happened had the call been different. If you, probably because of poor timing, make an immediately apparent incorrect call, promptly change the call to the correct one.

Any time you seek help from a partner, that partner must have been in a credible position to give you assistance with the call. The umpire whose call it was must be the one to seek help from a partner and has the ultimate decision of whether to change the call or not. Rarely is there a need for umpires to come together and confer. Unnecessary conferences among umpires delay the game and cast doubt on the crew. Most requests for assistance from a partner should be out in the open, direct, and concise - “Jane, was the ball on the ground?”

Only in the situations listed below, a partner who is 100 percent certain he/she has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call, should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. This is an extremely rare circumstance, and the ultimate decision to change a call still rests with the calling umpire:

• Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
• Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground-rule double.
• Cases where a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher.
• Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
• Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see a dropped or juggled ball after making a tag or force.
• Spectator interference plays.

Psychology of Asking for Help
Many times coaches really do not expect a call to be changed. But if they can get an umpire to seek help, they have gotten the umpire to admit doubt. Though the call may not be changed, the coach has set a precedent and will expect the umpire to go for help on all future requests. Because you went for help for one coach, the other coach will feel justified in expecting the same treatment

[fastpitch]

As a long time fastpitch coach and rookie umpire I have a tremendous dislike of baseball umpires trying to do softball games. An arrogant idiot of a baseball umpire will try to act like he knows what he is doing when he has absolutely no clue. Then when he realizes he has no clue he starts trying to cover it some other idiotic way.

I've had personal experiences including the only time I was ever asked to leave a game when I pointed out to the umpire I did not need to change my pitcher on my 3rd visit to the mound. I had conferred with the umpire to confirm it was my 2nd visit before visiting the mound when during the conference the other (visiting) coach convinced him it was my 3rd visit whereupon he told me I had to change pitchers, just one example of many I'm sure others have seen.

I'm not saying you can't do both, but it's like switch hitting - you need just as much practice and training from both sides.

Don't even get me started on the $100,000 baseball fields next to the $10,000 softball fields at our local high schools.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by fastpitch

As a long time fastpitch coach and rookie umpire I have a tremendous dislike of baseball umpires trying to do softball games. An arrogant idiot of a baseball umpire will try to act like he knows what he is doing when he has absolutely no clue. Then when he realizes he has no clue he starts trying to cover it some other idiotic way.

I've had personal experiences including the only time I was ever asked to leave a game when I pointed out to the umpire I did not need to change my pitcher on my 3rd visit to the mound. I had conferred with the umpire to confirm it was my 2nd visit before visiting the mound when during the conference the other (visiting) coach convinced him it was my 3rd visit whereupon he told me I had to change pitchers, just one example of many I'm sure others have seen.

I'm not saying you can't do both, but it's like switch hitting - you need just as much practice and training from both sides.

Don't even get me started on the $100,000 baseball fields next to the $10,000 softball fields at our local high schools.

So only arrogant idiots of a baseball umpires make the type of mistake you mentioned in your post? Maybe it's how you went about pointing it out to the umpire that got you tossed?

So your anger toward baseball and baseball umpires has to do with the fact that baseball programs in your area receive more money and therefore have better facilities?

IMHO you have some issues to deal with. I hope that you will not be umpiring baseball.

Good luck with the umpire career

Signed: Baseball umpire trying to do softball games


PS. And we were all finally getting along

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by fastpitch

I've had personal experiences including the only time I was ever asked to leave a game when I pointed out to the umpire I did not need to change my pitcher on my 3rd visit to the mound. I had conferred with the umpire to confirm it was my 2nd visit before visiting the mound when during the conference the other (visiting) coach convinced him it was my 3rd visit whereupon he told me I had to change pitchers, just one example of many I'm sure others have seen.

Not sure what this situation has to do with baseball. Sounds like an umpire who does not know how to keep track of charged conferences.

Originally Posted by fastpitch

Don't even get me started on the $100,000 baseball fields next to the $10,000 softball fields at our local high schools.

There is no issue unless the baseball fields are taxpayer / federal dollars funded. It is my observation that the youth baseball programs are better at fund-raising for facility improvements than are the fastpitch programs. It is not uncommon for the (privately funded) youth baseball programs to fund facility improvements to the school's fields. If that is happening for baseball and not softball in your community, get on the stick with softball fund-raising.

[fastpitch]

Title IX - equal funds to each sport - this is hidden behind booster club fundraising. What is it saying when there is a beautiful baseball stadium at the public HS and a field and a backstop with last year's baseball bleachers for the girls. Yes, I have an attitude about it since the female athletes are short-changed. We put too much money into certain sports and offer a smaller selection of sports for the kids to take part in, boys or girls.

Of course softball umpires make mistakes but baseball umpires that think they know softball are typically arrogant and already think they know it all. I was asked to leave, never raised my voice, the girls had no idea what had happened. The umpire followed me back to the dugout when I had already attempted to leave the conversation and kept saying you have to change pitchers and I was saying whatever, then started in on the other coaches when I made mention that he obviously did not know the rules and could he bring the UIC over then he asked me to leave so I did. I could have made a fool of the umpire had I wanted but was trying to leave the area. What do you think he would have done when I brought in another pitcher, threw one pitch then brought the first pitcher back. He would have said she cannot pitch anymore. I could have said that is her sister since we had pitchers that were identical twins and no way he knew which number the pitcher was wearing.

The tournament had a lot of baseball umpires (cheaped out and did not use an ASA association) and this was just one of many examples from that particular weekend (6 or 7 years ago) I've seen lots of bad umpiring through the years, in high school ball or other than ASA. Other examples are calling girls out for not sliding when no serious contact, allowing 10U to steal home, calling girls out for leaving base early lots of times at all age levels, no clue on look back rule, no clue on legal/illegal pitches. I'm sure the more experienced umpires can list many more examples.

My favorite is the ISA umpire that called my player out for avoiding the tag, she fell to the ground and F1 ran by her and she got up and scored. Blue told me she fell out of the basepath.

As a coach with many umpire friends, I learned to always respect the umpire, it is just common sense and best for your team. I never thought umpiring would be easy and am enjoying every game I do so far.

[blu_bawls]

Asking for help is one of the parts of umpiring that is the hardest to define and even harder for an umpire to gain the knowledge when to do it.

An umpire has to be able to know that he/she may have not made the correct call because they didn't have all of the information and this can be caused by being out of position, being blocked, or making an interpretation without all of the data.

Today I had a play at the plate. As the ball came in and the catcher went to tag the runner, the pitcher moved into my line of sight. I tried to move but she took away my angle.

I didn't see a tag so I ruled the runner safe saying, 'No Tag!" The catcher look at me like I was nuts and I knew that I was blocked and didn't have all of the information I needed to make an accurate call. I assumed she made the tag but not seeing it I couldn't make that assumption.

I went to my partner who was standing between the pitcher/third base and I yelled so everyone could hear me, "My sight was blocked by the Pitcher. Did you see a tag for an out?"

Partner said "Yes." and I changed my call. Third out. Head Coach comes up to us and says, "It was the correct call. I am sorry to see it changed but it is correct."

[Justme]

Originally Posted by blu_bawls

Asking for help is one of the parts of umpiring that is the hardest to define and even harder for an umpire to gain the knowledge when to do it.

An umpire has to be able to know that he/she may have not made the correct call because they didn't have all of the information and this can be caused by being out of position, being blocked, or making an interpretation without all of the data.

Today I had a play at the plate. As the ball came in and the catcher went to tag the runner, the pitcher moved into my line of sight. I tried to move but she took away my angle.

I didn't see a tag so I ruled the runner safe saying, 'No Tag!" The catcher look at me like I was nuts and I knew that I was blocked and didn't have all of the information I needed to make an accurate call. I assumed she made the tag but not seeing it I couldn't make that assumption.

I went to my partner who was standing between the pitcher/third base and I yelled so everyone could hear me, "My sight was blocked by the Pitcher. Did you see a tag for an out?"

Partner said "Yes." and I changed my call. Third out. Head Coach comes up to us and says, "It was the correct call. I am sorry to see it changed but it is correct."

IMHO it was great that you went to your partner for help but I would have done it privately

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by fastpitch

Title IX - equal funds to each sport -

Really? Have you read the law?

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Really? Have you read the law?

Especially with the history of this thread, I am surprised at the tone of your answer. To me it comes across as smart a$$. I personally don't know anyone that has read Title IX, but I know a number of people that have read about it.

"Equal funds to each sport" is not how I understand it. Have you read Title IX? I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on the subject.

My understanding of Title IX is that it means equal funding for qirls and boys programs. I do not believe it is limited to a sport-by-sport evaluation, nor even an evaluation of athletic program against athletic program, but just that a school cannot budget money unfairly earmarked for one specific demographic.

I also am not familiar with what I am sure are court rulings that discuss how 'booster club' money would affect this parity.