3 person mechanic question

[DaveASA/FED]

I was 3rd baseumpire, person on 1 so I am in line with 2nd, hit to SS she throws to 2nd for force out, I watch ball till it nears fielder then focus on bag to see slide and fielders feet, I hear ball hit glove.....fielders feet miss bag, fielder comes down like no big deal, runner is getting up like no big deal so I give a safe call. So what is the issue??? Well I didnt' know till I started to move that the ball skipped off her mitt and was in center field!! So I feel stupid as I blew the "no ball-no call" theory. But even worse I start thinking what if she would have landed with her feet on the bag and I banged the out with the ball in the outfield??? Talk about crawlling off the field to hide!!

So I ask you what did I do wrong?? If I watched the ball longer I am afraid I would have missed the foot action, which in this case is meaningless but with a situation of a catch it is important......the only advice I have been given is I might have been too close to the play thus limiting my periferial (spelling) vision to see the ball skip into the outfield. One more thing is to get there, it had to go right over my head and I didn't even know it, now that is scary!!

[IRISHMAFIA]

I agree, too close is the most likely the reason this happened.

However, what did you mean by "I am in line with 2nd"? Are you referring to the base or the player? Hopefully, you are not straight up the middle unless the fielder was playing so deep it forced you to that position.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

I was 3rd baseumpire, person on 1 so I am in line with 2nd, hit to SS she throws to 2nd for force out, I watch ball till it nears fielder then focus on bag to see slide and fielders feet, I hear ball hit glove.....fielders feet miss bag, fielder comes down like no big deal, runner is getting up like no big deal so I give a safe call. So what is the issue??? Well I didnt' know till I started to move that the ball skipped off her mitt and was in center field!! So I feel stupid as I blew the "no ball-no call" theory. But even worse I start thinking what if she would have landed with her feet on the bag and I banged the out with the ball in the outfield??? Talk about crawlling off the field to hide!!

Sounds like you made the correct call. There was a ball/play at the time you made your call. Regardless of the throw being caught you had the runner safe so the fact that the SS wasn't able to handle the throw in this situation is secondary. Giving the safe signal/call was okay.

Now IF you had 'banged out' the runner with the ball in the field you could have have changed your call. "No, she's safe...balls on the ground." It ain't pretty but sometimes it has to be done.

Best way to avoid this is to take your time with the call. Let the play complete itself before making your call.

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

So I ask you what did I do wrong?? If I watched the ball longer I am afraid I would have missed the foot action, which in this case is meaningless but with a situation of a catch it is important......the only advice I have been given is I might have been too close to the play thus limiting my periferial (spelling) vision to see the ball skip into the outfield. One more thing is to get there, it had to go right over my head and I didn't even know it, now that is scary!!

I only watch the ball long enough to know that I have a good throw. After that I'm setting up to watch the play. Many umpires think (or were taught) that the closer you get to a play the better. Most of us know that's not always true because if you get too close sometimes you don't see the entire picture.

So you might have been too close and/or you might have been made your call too quickly.....that happens.....don't be so hard on yourself. You've learned something from this situation and that will make you a better umpire. Good luck

[Andy]

The great thing about the three umpire system is that you often start in the position you need to be in to call the next play. You don't have to move to get a good position. The downside of this is that it goes against our two umpire mechanics of having to move almost every time the ball is hit to get to a good position to call the play.

If you are like most of us and work the great majority of your games in either the two or one umpire system, then go to a three umpire game, you have to fight that instinct to move when you don't need to.

The play presented by the OP is a prime example. With a runner on first only, the U3 is postioned at the optimum spot to call a play at second base. However, when the ball was hit to F6, that "I need to get position" instinct may have kicked in and Dave may have instinctively taken a step or two in toward second and put himsef too close to the play and not seen the ball deflect off of the fielders glove.

Just a guess at what may have happened in this particular play, but a very real observation about three umpire mechanics based on personal experience.

[CelticNHBlue]

Andy makes a good point regarding pre-pitch position and calling position. I will, however, disagree slightly in this situation as to that being the case.

As U3 rotated, your ideal starting position is the calling position on a steal - 3rd base extended, 6'-8' from the bag. The play in the OP is a ground ball to shortstop and a force at 2nd. This calls for U3 to rotate toward center field to get a 90 degree from the throw while backing up a couple steps to your preferred 15'-18' calling depth. (This may require you to move as far as 1st base extended or more if the SS fields the ball in front of the 2nd-3rd baseline.)

I would guess that one reason you lost track of the ball was due to the fact that you were near straight-lined to the throw, another that you were probable a little too close, and finally you rushed the call a little. As mentioned, a lesson learned; one that we have all learned the hard way before.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Wade, what you are saying is a RECENT NCAA mechanic version of 3 man; it isn't what has been taught by ASA NUS.

Truthfully, 1) I feel very uncomfortable being that close to 2nd base, 2) I disagree that the more likely play based on number of incidents is steal over force out, and 3) I disagree that it is easier to back up on a play where you have to wait until the ball is hit and fielded (to make any judgment about the likely play), than it is to step up into a steal that you can see coming from the time the pitcher releases the ball.

But, when doing NCAA, and in evaluation situations, that is what I do; despite the discomfort of knowing I am too close to see the whole play. I do agree with your assessment that Dave should have worked around to more angle to the throw, rather than holding his calling position.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by Justme

Now IF you had 'banged out' the runner with the ball in the field you could have have changed your call. "No, she's safe...balls on the ground." It ain't pretty but sometimes it has to be done.

Laz Diaz, baby, Laz Diaz