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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 29, 2004, 07:07am
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Question

Here's one from a summer game I was watching. Talked to several peole about it, but not sure you all y'all have heard about it.

ASA 18U Fastpitch

R1 on Third, R2 on First. Two outs. Tied game. Three person system. All umpires are where they are to be (U1 between 1st and 2nd, U3 in fould territory at third, Plate at home--thankfully).

On the pitch, R2 attempts to get caught in a rundown in order to score the run. What is the proper mechanic for covering the rundown? Does U1 take it solo? Does U3 help, leaving Plate umpire to cover R1 at third? Does Plate cover backside of rundown and U3 rotate home? (Hey, I'm just throwing out options here)
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2004, 10:21am
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Quote:
Originally posted by FUBLUE
Here's one from a summer game I was watching. Talked to several peole about it, but not sure you all y'all have heard about it.

ASA 18U Fastpitch

R1 on Third, R2 on First. Two outs. Tied game. Three person system. All umpires are where they are to be (U1 between 1st and 2nd, U3 in fould territory at third, Plate at home--thankfully).

On the pitch, R2 attempts to get caught in a rundown in order to score the run. What is the proper mechanic for covering the rundown? Does U1 take it solo? Does U3 help, leaving Plate umpire to cover R1 at third? Does Plate cover backside of rundown and U3 rotate home? (Hey, I'm just throwing out options here)
Assuming a throw has been made in an attempt to pick off R2 (even though that would be one stupid play by the defense).

Plate umpire stays home, no rotation. U1 has the play, though I would think U3 would begin to enter fair territory toward 2B as an extra pair of eyes. U3 should not come inside the diamond or stray from 3B far enough to lose any angle for a possible call should the defense throw back to F5 in an attempt to get R1 if she leaves the base.

IOW, U1 has the play by him/herself.
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2004, 01:36pm
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Sounds likt the way I would cover it

Hey Mike, Don't you have work to do????
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2004, 11:41pm
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Mike, just out of curiosity,why wouldn't the U3 go to 2nd, once the rundown starts? The PU could be moving down to 3rd, just in case. If the runner on 3rd goes home, the PU would still be in position to make the cal at home. They wouldn't be all the way down to 3rd, just moving that way, in case a throw is made. If they are heading that direction, if the throw becomes evident, all they have to do is run 3 or 4 steps and be in position for the call. If the runner comes home, back up 5 or 6 steps and you're in position there. This way, if a rundown does occur, then both bases are covered.
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 08:01am
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Cool

If U3 moves to second to help U1 on call, and plate umpire covers runner at third, what would U3 do if there is a throw home with the runner there being caught in a rundown?
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 08:40am
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Quote:
Originally posted by TexBlue
Mike, just out of curiosity,why wouldn't the U3 go to 2nd, once the rundown starts? The PU could be moving down to 3rd, just in case. If the runner on 3rd goes home, the PU would still be in position to make the cal at home. They wouldn't be all the way down to 3rd, just moving that way, in case a throw is made. If they are heading that direction, if the throw becomes evident, all they have to do is run 3 or 4 steps and be in position for the call. If the runner comes home, back up 5 or 6 steps and you're in position there. This way, if a rundown does occur, then both bases are covered.
1. How is U3 going to get to 2B without crossing a throwing lane? I certainly hope that you are not suggesting that U3 run all the way around 2B to get into position. If that were the case, U3's eyes will be of little help as these plays don't usually take that long.

2. If U3 does come inside, s/he is now in the middle of the play.

3. PU will never get a good angle for a throw-back to 3B without forfeiting his/her position for a call at the plate.

4. Runner priority. It is more important to have 3B & H covered than a rundown between 1B & 2B.

5. The 3-system is based around prioritizing the runners which is why that system always places an umpire at the base to which a runner would be advancing.

6. Yes, they are kids and they have to cover more linear footage than the umpire, but guess what? Like to admit it or not, they are quicker and faster than most umpires. While the PU may only have to cover a little over half the distance the runner does, remember, it isn't just a matter of beating them to a point, but coming to a stop, setting and watching the play develop before the runner gets to the point where there will be a play.

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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 08:40am
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Mike got it right. You don't want the Ump @ 3rd helping two other umpires each with potential run downs. I can see that ump bouncing back & forth with no one sure who is covering 2nd or 3rd.
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 06:04pm
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As usual, you have very valid points.

However, I do believe that U3 can get to the rundown between 1st and 2nd by the time the 2nd throw is completed and not cross any throwing lanes. U1 is already outside, U3 can take the inside part of the baseline. This way, tags on the outside and inside are covered. U1 may have to cover possibly the 1st 2 throw, but it is possible to get there to help U1. Granted, it's a terrible rundown if more than 3 throws happen, but with 2 Blues present, the coverage is better.

If the rundown is occurring between 1st and 2nd, Home Plate could be moseying on down to third. Odds are really good, if the rundown stops and the defense decides to make a play on the runner at 3rd, the defensive player, if really coached well, will run at the runner, to make her commit one way or the other. I understand the proritizing concept and I would never want to leave home uncovered. The HP is never going to run all the way to 3rd, or all the way back to home. They should still be 12-15 feet away from the call or they are too close to see the whole picture. This takes 30 feet away from the coverage area. If you figure the ump was only 1/2 way up the line, and until a play is evident this is where they should stay, the actual running distance should be about 15 feet to either 3rd or home. I feel a really good crew can handle it this way and never be out of position. If the play is made at 3rd, the U3 should be wandering back to that area, in case a rundown develops.
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Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 08:47pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by TexBlue
I feel a really good crew can handle it this way and never be out of position.
I believe the moment an umpire comes inside the diamond on a play like this, they are out of position. There is a possible play at every base. It is very possible that the thrower and receiver could be on a base, up the line or down the line which means the umpire never knows if they are in a throwing lane or not.

I'll stick with my original opinion here. U3 comes into fair territory as an extra set of eyes, but never to the point of losing the angle needed if there is a throw to 3B.

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Old Mon Feb 02, 2004, 09:44pm
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Cool

Great discussion, but follow my thinking here...

U3 comes to just inside the "baseline" between 2nd and 3rd in order to get inside/outside coverage (granted, ability to run is going to be limited, but can help on getting call right) PU backs into a "Holding Zone" to view runner at third. IF a throw away from the rundown is going to happen, it will probably be to home plate, right? Any team at this level will know not to throw behind the runner, right?

SO let's say there are three throws between 1st and 2nd. R1 breaks for home once she (coach) realizes the defense is trying for the out. Throw comes home. If U3 is near the baseline between 2nd and 3rd (about 12 feet away from second) and is thinking about what is happening, they WILL NOT be in the way of the throw. So the throw goes home.

Now R1 is in a pickle between 3rd and home. Who covers? Why doesn't U3 pivot and come towards third, still maintaining the position just inside the baseline? They are not in the way anymore, since R3 is going to take second once the throw comes home. This way, U3 has helped BOTH partners out on BOTH rundowns without getting involved in the play.

Just a thought!
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Old Mon Feb 02, 2004, 11:13pm
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That's exactly what I wanted to say. I guess you had to understand what I meant, not what I typed. To me, this covers all the situations and never crosses the path of a thrown ball. It seems like any other way is a waste of a perfectly good 3 man crew.
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Old Tue Feb 03, 2004, 10:04am
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In real life, the plate umpire in foul territory will rarely, if ever, get a good look/angle on a close tag play at 3B when the runner is on the 3B line and the throw is coming from fair territory.
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