Was it a strike?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CLBuffalo

The original post was about fast pitch, not slow pitch. If you mean fast pitch then guilty. I would never call a strike that only passed over the front knee.

And my contention is that you cannot tell the difference from any umpire stance.

[CLBuffalo]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And my contention is that you cannot tell the difference from any umpire's stance.

In fast pitch I'm watching for the ball to go over the back knee. I can't imagine a ball going under the front knee and then over the back knee. Are you saying that in fast pitch it only has to go over the front knee and not hit the plate for it to be a strike or that the umpire only has to see it go over the front knee?

I have been reading your posts on this and other forums since 1988. I respect your opinions and expertise. I am really trying to understand what you are saying.

[IRISHMAFIA]

FP

All I'm saying is that I don't believe ANY umpire from any accepted/standard plate stance can tell if the ball actually went over one knee, but not the other regardless of whether it was the front or back knee.

[CLBuffalo]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

FP

All I'm saying is that I don't believe ANY umpire from any accepted/standard plate stance can tell if the ball actually went over one knee, but not the other regardless of whether it was the front or back knee.

OK - got it and I agree. That is why I use the back knee.

[Smiley]

Then you are not calling by the NFHS strike zone, unless the back knee is at the front of the plate. The only requirement is that any part of the ball pass through the strike zone, which is above the knees, which should be at the same level. What do you do if the batter is in the back of the batter's box, three feet behind the plate?

[CLBuffalo]

Originally Posted by Smiley

Then you are not calling by the NFHS strike zone, unless the back knee is at the front of the plate. The only requirement is that any part of the ball pass through the strike zone, which is above the knees, which should be at the same level. What do you do if the batter is in the back of the batter's box, three feet behind the plate?

I don't use a moving strike zone based on where the batter is in the box. I use the natural stance when the batter is adjacent to the plate.

[mcrowder]

I don't even look at their knees after they've entered the box. The rule doesn't say the ball must go over a particular knee (or both) - it says it must enter the zone above the plate at that height. I don't care how far up or back they stand, the zone is over the plate (front OR back).

And at younger levels, a ball can DEFINITELY be at that height at the front of the plate, and not be there at the back of the plate - and it's still a strike. You can even have what WOULD HAVE been a strike (i.e. passed through the strike zone) end up hitting the plate (and being a ball because of it). If their knees were lined up at the front and back of the plate, then I certainly can see where ANYone (not just trained umpires in certain stances) could see that it was above the front knee and not above the back.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CLBuffalo

In fast pitch I'm watching for the ball to go over the back knee. I can't imagine a ball going under the front knee and then over the back knee. Are you saying that in fast pitch it only has to go over the front knee and not hit the plate for it to be a strike or that the umpire only has to see it go over the front knee?

Man, you need to see a good drop ball pitcher, or one with a low rise.

Any part of the ball touching any part of the strike zone at any part of the plate. A good drop can easily hit the front of the plate at the top of the knee then break down. A good low rise can be just below the zone at the front of the plate, and hit the level of the top of the knee by the back of the plate. Both are strikes that need to be called, without regard to either knee being in front, behind, or even with the plate.

[CLBuffalo]

Probably the best thing about this forum is if enough seasoned and expert people tell you that what you are doing is wrong, then it probably is wrong, no matter how long you have been doing it. I don't know where the idea that the pitch has to cross both knees came from but I've been calling that for 23 years and I now see that I am wrong. Why this has never been picked up before in the clinics I've attended or by other umpires I've worked with or in games where I've been evaluated and critiqued I don't know. The fun part now is going to be in retraining myself.

Thanks to all who kept calling this to my attention, even when I was adamant that I was right. Thank you also for not calling me or saying in the forum what you might have been thinking to yourselves about my attitude. I can be stubborn but eventually it does get through.

I hope the others who post here will listen intently to what is said and go through it thoroughly in their minds before being quick to say they are right and others are wrong. I will be doing this in the future.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Al,

The mat as a strike zone is unfair to both batter and pitcher. It is also a waste of money and officiating resources. Then again, you live in an area where they use umpires for t-ball and coach pitch, so obviously, your association is not hurting for umpires. Of that, I am envious.

[Al]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Al,

The mat as a strike zone is unfair to both batter and pitcher. It is also a waste of money and officiating resources. Then again, you live in an area where they use umpires for t-ball and coach pitch, so obviously, your association is not hurting for umpires. Of that, I am envious.

Hey Mike,

As I watched several games I didn't see very many walks or called strike-outs.
It seemed both pitcher and batter were happy with this mat strike zone. I know the umpires were happy because they didn't get any noise from the fans or batters that the ball was high, low, outside, or inside. Can't miss the ball bouncing off the plate. If there was no swing & miss etc. and the ball dropped on the plate; or the extension, it was a strike, if not it was a ball. (and very hittable as long as the ball was not flat, in which case it was called a ball even if it hit the plate.)
Now you have me wanting to ask the pitcher if he thinks this is unfair from a pitchers point of view. It seems if one has a disadvantage it may be the pitcher, but like I said they all seemed happy. Maybe cause they know if they get the ball where they are aiming it will be a sure strike if the batter don't swing at it. ...I'm going to try to get to the park to watch more games over the next few Saturday's to get some feed back from a pitcher or two. I'm very nosy as you can probably tell. ...Al

[IRISHMAFIA]

Al,

Unfair to batter - There is no requirement to hit the strike zone, which means the 5'2" batter has the same "zone" as the 6'6" batter. If you are the latter, you probably don't care. However, if you are the previous, you might have a problem. A pitch can hit the front of the plate, never coming even close to the batter's front knee and it's a strike.

Unfair to the pitcher - A legal 7' pitch can clear the mat even though it is a perfectly good pitch in a legal strike zone and be ruled a ball because it missed the mat. A pitcher is more of a target as s/he must throw the ball down the middle. No curves, no catching the corners, etc.

[Al]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Al,

Unfair to batter - There is no requirement to hit the strike zone, which means the 5'2" batter has the same "zone" as the 6'6" batter. If you are the latter, you probably don't care. However, if you are the previous, you might have a problem. A pitch can hit the front of the plate, never coming even close to the batter's front knee and it's a strike.

Unfair to the pitcher - A legal 7' pitch can clear the mat even though it is a perfectly good pitch in a legal strike zone and be ruled a ball because it missed the mat. A pitcher is more of a target as s/he must throw the ball down the middle. No curves, no catching the corners, etc.

Thanks Mike,

Good points! The more I think about what you said the more I think this mat ball takes too much away from the game...both batters and pitchers as you pointed out. ...

Tonight if the field has dried out, and no more rain comes (looks like it might) I will be umpiring for the same two teams that played last Monday where I ejected the head coach of the Bears. Because of all the rainouts this past week it will be his first game since the ejection so I hope I don't have any trouble with him. I wonder if he plans to come over to offer an apology, as he told the administrator he would do if I let him coach the game after the ejection? I wonder if I should just let it go if he doesn't and let him coach anyway? Or would it be better for me not to let it go and remind him that without an apology he must leave the field? ...Anyone want to comment? Must do so within a few hours. Thanks, ... Al

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Al

I wonder if he plans to come over to offer an apology, as he told the administrator he would do if I let him coach the game after the ejection? I wonder if I should just let it go if he doesn't and let him coach anyway? Or would it be better for me not to let it go and remind him that without an apology he must leave the field? ...Anyone want to comment? Must do so within a few hours. Thanks, ... Al

I don't carry over behavior issues from one game to the next.

Suspensions after an ejection are a league issue, not an umpiring issue. (I know from earlier comments you were put in this position, but, still...)

With these two principles as a guide, I would ignore the whole thing. Let tonight's game stand on its own. In fact, if the coach does come over to apologize, I might be tempted to say something like, "Thanks, coach. But tonight is a new game; clean slate. Let's just play ball."

PS: If he does NOT apologize, I would still play the game, not bring it up at all, but then report to the league admin that the coach did not apologize. Let them deal with the ramifications, if any.

[mcrowder]

Al - if he comes to apologize, the best thing you can do is say something like - "Coach, I umpire so many games that I don't even remember the incident you are referring to. I appreciate the apology, but I assure you it's water under the bridge."