Order of Appeals

[CelticNHBlue]

This is similar to a test question from a local association, please add rule set and appropriate rules for your explanation(s).

Batting order (names not important)

1 # 1 LF
2 # 2 RF
3 # 3 CF
4 # 4 1B
5 # 5 2B
6 # 6 3B
7 # 7 SS
8 # 8 C
9 # 9 DP
10 #10 FLEX

middle of the game, #3 was last completed batter in the prior inning now starting the following inning (same team):

A #7 bats, single to left

B #5 bats, single to left, #7 to third

C #2 bats, fly to short, no advance

D #10 bats (without reporting). On the second pitch #5 steals second. On the fifth pitch, #10 flies out to right scoring #7 and advancing #5 to third.

The defensive coach now appeals (before next pitch):

sitch 1 - BOO only

sitch 2 - unreported sub then BOO

sitch 3 - illegal player

For each of these situations, how do you rule and why, where do you place the runners, and does the order of the appeals (as in #2) affect how many successful appeals can be made on the same play?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CelticNHBlue
This is similar to a test question from a local association, please add rule set and appropriate rules for your explanation(s).

Batting order (names not important)

1 # 1 LF
2 # 2 RF
3 # 3 CF
4 # 4 1B
5 # 5 2B
6 # 6 3B
7 # 7 SS
8 # 8 C
9 # 9 DP
10 #10 FLEX

middle of the game, #3 was last completed batter in the prior inning now starting the following inning (same team):

A #7 bats, single to left

B #5 bats, single to left, #7 to third

C #2 bats, fly to short, no advance

D #10 bats (without reporting). On the second pitch #5 steals second. On the fifth pitch, #10 flies out to right scoring #7 and advancing #5 to third.

The defensive coach now appeals (before next pitch):

sitch 1 - BOO only

sitch 2 - unreported sub then BOO

sitch 3 - illegal player

For each of these situations, how do you rule and why, where do you place the runners, and does the order of the appeals (as in #2) affect how many successful appeals can be made on the same play?

Speaking ASA (no book handy, so rule citation will not be included)

To start, unless the O tells you before it is raised, you shouldn't have a BOO without the US. An US is not an appeal play (It is a protest situation, but there is no requirement for the umpire to ignore the situation until it is raised by the offended team. A little preventive umpiring works well in this situation). Once that is realized, the IP comes into play since #3 is the official batter.

No matter what, #10 is DQd. #3 is ruled out and #5 returns to 3B. #3 now reenters (if that option is available) or a LEGAL substitute is entered in that slot of the BO. If neither of these conditions can be met, the team may play shorthanded if not already utilizing that option.

There is now a runner at 2B, two outs and #4 is the legal batter. If the defense is smart, they will intentionally walk #4 since #5 cannot be on base and bat at the same time.

[mcrowder]

Agree with everything except the final statement. Walking B4 with B5 already on base will simply bring up B6 with no additional penalty. Book is clear on what to do if due to previously legitimized BOO's cause you to have a sitch where the proper batter is already on base. You skip the batter that's on base.

OP: You don't have multiple appeals here, regardless of what exactly the coach says or what order. You have IP, and enforce it as such.

[rwest]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
#3 now reenters (if that option is available) or a LEGAL substitute is entered in that slot of the BO. [/B]

Whay reenter #3? You've just ruled them out on BOO.

[Dakota]

I disagree with Mike - in part (we'll see how long THIS lasts!) I do agree in part.

The actual situation, by the time it gets this far, is not a BOO, it is an illegal substitute (NFHS 3-3-6-g and 2-57-2-c) or illegal player (ASA 4-3-3-I and 4-6-A-1). This is a protest situation, not an appeal situation.

Are you asking about a sequence of "appeals" (using the term informally) wherein the defense tries BOO as their first try? Clearly, the defense knows something is amiss. Who knows why they waited until now to appeal when no one this entire inning has followed the batting order.

But the rule only requires the defense to bring it to the attention of the umpire, not that the defense uses the technically correct words. The illegal player was clearly discovered by the defense, even if they did not know what to call it.

The FLEX who batted is the illegal player and is declared out and DQed (ASA 4-6-4-EFFECT-b) or out and restricted to the bench (NFHS 3-4-2-a). She is considered to have been substituted for #3, illegally, so #3 has left the game. All runners return to their bases at the TOP. #4 is due up. The offense must come up with someone to take the #3 spot in the order - either #3 re-enters or another legal sub enters.

[Edited by Dakota on Mar 9th, 2006 at 05:45 PM]

[SC Ump]

But...

After the first pitch to #2, #5 was legal, so #6 should have been there intead of #2. After #2 flied out, but before the next pitch, it was #7's turn to come up to bat.

This is the point #10 entered the line up.

So I would think #10 was an illegal sub for #7. It was only after one pitch to #10 that #3 became the proper batter. At that point, #10, an illegal sub for #7 was batting where #3 should have been.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Agree with everything except the final statement. Walking B4 with B5 already on base will simply bring up B6 with no additional penalty. Book is clear on what to do if due to previously legitimized BOO's cause you to have a sitch where the proper batter is already on base. You skip the batter that's on base.

But the player wouldn't be removed from the base to bat due to BOO. His/her slot would be one past the correct batter following that ruled out for failing to bat.

Under CR section of rule 8 it states that if the batter due up is on base, s/he must leave the base, be ruled out and bat.

Actually, I don't think it's covered for situations once you get by the BOO or not using a CR. I guess you could "sell" it either way.

If a direct result of BOO, I would probably also leave the runner on base and just skip them that time through the line up. What I would suggest is that if you cover it before restarting the game after the BOO. IOW, go down the immediate line up of batters noting that #5 is going to be skipped to avoid further stopage of play.



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Mar 9th, 2006 at 06:58 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by rwest

Whay reenter #3? You've just ruled them out on BOO. [/B]

Because when you DQ the FLEX, you are going to need a substitute.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
I disagree with Mike - in part (we'll see how long THIS lasts!) I do agree in part.

The actual situation, by the time it gets this far, is not a BOO, it is an illegal substitute (NFHS 3-3-6-g and 2-57-2-c) or illegal player (ASA 4-3-3-I and 4-6-A-1). This is a protest situation, not an appeal situation.

Are you asking about a sequence of "appeals" (using the term informally) wherein the defense tries BOO as their first try? Clearly, the defense knows something is amiss. Who knows why they waited until now to appeal when no one this entire inning has followed the batting order.

But the rule only requires the defense to bring it to the attention of the umpire, not that the defense uses the technically correct words. The illegal player was clearly discovered by the defense, even if they did not know what to call it.

The FLEX who batted is the illegal player and is declared out and DQed (ASA 4-6-4-EFFECT-b) or out and restricted to the bench (NFHS 3-4-2-a). She is considered to have been substituted for #3, illegally,

What an "illegal substitute"

so #3 has left the game. All runners return to their bases at the TOP. #4 is due up. The offense must come up with someone to take the #3 spot in the order - either #3 re-enters or another legal sub enters.

Part of the problem here is whether #10 is batting for #3 or for #9 in the wrong position. Tom is correct in that without reporting as a sub for #9, the umpire must assume you now have an IP. OTOH, to make life a little easier on yourself and less guesswork, you could ask #10, "just who were you supposed to be going in for?" If s/he says #9, than you just have the US and BOO. Or the coach is going to come out screaming, "what the hell you talking about, the FLEX can bat for the DP!" Ha! Back to the US and BOO ruling.

But the IP takes precedence if no other info is known. And yes, I forgot to rule the IP out in my original response.

[mcrowder]

Originally posted by SC Ump
But...

After the first pitch to #2, #5 was legal, so #6 should have been there intead of #2. After #2 flied out, but before the next pitch, it was #7's turn to come up to bat.

This is the point #10 entered the line up.

So I would think #10 was an illegal sub for #7. It was only after one pitch to #10 that #3 became the proper batter. At that point, #10, an illegal sub for #7 was batting where #3 should have been.

No, once #10 took a pitch, it legitimized #2, making #3 the proper next batter.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
What an "illegal substitute"

LOL... but, I was referencing the NFHS book at the time, which does use the term in the rule I referenced! Maybe the author of that must discussed ASA question was WMB???

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Part of the problem here is whether #10 is batting for #3 or for #9 in the wrong position. Tom is correct in that without reporting as a sub for #9, the umpire must assume you now have an IP. OTOH, to make life a little easier on yourself and less guesswork, you could ask #10, "just who were you supposed to be going in for?" If s/he says #9, than you just have the US and BOO. Or the coach is going to come out screaming, "what the hell you talking about, the FLEX can bat for the DP!" Ha! Back to the US and BOO ruling.

But the IP takes precedence if no other info is known. And yes, I forgot to rule the IP out in my original response.

In the information given, there is no BOO, so B3 is not out (my other disagreement with your response). She has been replaced in the lineup with the IP, so she may re-enter (eventually, her time at bat is gone) if she has re-entry privileges.

Generally, I do not police the batters as they come to bat. If they come to bat in the wrong order or unannounced, that will go by without notice from me as PU. If there has been no notice that the FLEX is entering for DP, then the assumption by rule is that she is entering unannouced into the batting order for the next batter due up.

Who is the next up in this scenario? I tend toward keeping it simple. The previous batter was #2. She was not appealed as BOO, so her at bat is legal. Therefore, FLEX is assumed to have entered for #3.

OTOH, if the coach DOES announce the FLEX entering to bat for DP, then this would be BOO. Or, if the coach attempts to announce FLEX entering for #3, I would point out to him that he can't do that.

There can't be both a BOO penalty and an IP penalty. The IP takes precedence.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Tom,

Isn't that what my post indicated?

[CelticNHBlue]

Well there has been some strong discussion about this situation, which is what I hoped for. I will let you know that this was an NCAA quiz and therefor the following answer is based on these rules and comes straight from the newest member of the National Staff:

D #10 bats (without reporting). On the second pitch #5 steals second. On the fifth pitch, #10 flies out to right scoring #7 and advancing #5 to third.

The defensive coach now appeals (before next pitch):

Ultimately, this is the only real issue, the rest was merely a distraction. According to the rules of NCAA, when #10, the Flex, enters the box unreported, there is only one place in the BO that she may do so, and that is for the DP in the 9 slot. That eliminates the opportunity for an illegal player penalty.

The reasoning was explained this way: lets say that during an offensive half inning, a coach makes multiple substitutions and at the end of that half inning reports to the plate umpire, "I am re-entering X, Y, Z". Where do you assume these players re-enter? Naturally, the only place they are allowed, by rule. Similarly, when the appeal is made, whether for BOO or illegal player, we must assume that the unreported flex player must be batting in their only legal position in the order.

Several of us discussed the options mentioned here as well as some others and I wanted to share what we learned with everyone, but only after letting you think about what you would do in a similar situation.

Mike - having read your responses with great interest, I am curious as to how ASA specifically wants us to deal with this situation. Do they agree with NCAA or with your previous remarks regarding substituting as the next batter due up and therefor no BOO, but yes to illegal player (BTW this was my first thought). Your pipeline to those in command is always welcome and appreciated.

[CecilOne]

wrt" "The reasoning was explained this way: lets say that during an offensive half inning, a coach makes multiple substitutions and at the end of that half inning reports to the plate umpire, "I am re-entering X, Y, Z". Where do you assume these players re-enter? Naturally, the only place they are allowed, by rule. Similarly, when the appeal is made, whether for BOO or illegal player, we must assume that the unreported flex player must be batting in their only legal position in the order."

The problem is that those re-entries are returning to positions which are not corrupted by the wrong players batting and they are reported by the coach saying they are re-entering.
Whenever #2 batted, without a defense objection before a next pitch, the correct batter is then #3. The only way the Flex can bat after #2 is if #3 is the DP. Regardless of the rule set (other than the NCAA new interp.), IP or US terminology, and the penalty; #10 is not the correct batter and can not be.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
No matter what, #10 is DQd. #3 is ruled out and #5 returns to 3B. #3 now reenters (if that option is available) or a LEGAL substitute is entered in that slot of the BO. If neither of these conditions can be met, the team may play shorthanded if not already utilizing that option.

Mike,

I've underlined my disagreement.

#3 is only out if this was a BOO. Since it is an IP, the #3 position in the BO has been occupied and the at bat completed, albiet by an illegal player.

So, #3 is not out (the IP is), and #3 does not re-enter (at least not right now - her time at bat is done.)