Fix this one

[Andy]

NCAA game, R1 on first, two outs.

R1 attempts to steal, throw from catcher is caught by F6 in time and tag is applied. BU (me) calls runner out. What I didn't see, for whatever reason, is that F6 dropped the ball during the tag attempt, then scooped it back up. Since I called the out, the defense ran off the field. The runner gets up and runs to third base. The coach at third base asks for time and comes to me saying that she thought F6 dropped the ball and could I check with my partner. I went to my partner and he confirmed that the ball was on the ground during the tag attempt.

Where would you place the runner and resume the game?

[heyblue]

I would put the runner on second. Reason being is that by calling the runner out, the defense was put in jeopardy thinking the runner was retired and the inning was over. More than likely the coach on offense won't like it, but to me that's the right call.

I actually had a very similar situation in a high school tournament last year. Bases loaded, two out bang-bang play at first. I call BR out and defense starts heading to dugout. First base coach states emphatically that F3 pulled her foot. I ask my partner and he says she did. After conferring with my partner, we brought loaded the bases again allowing only one run to score. Third base coach and I had a few words but I stood by my ruling. Ended up, it didn't matter. The next girl hits one over the fence. Game over by run rule.

[Justme]

Originally posted by Andy
NCAA game, R1 on first, two outs.

R1 attempts to steal, throw from catcher is caught by F6 in time and tag is applied. BU (me) calls runner out. What I didn't see, for whatever reason, is that F6 dropped the ball during the tag attempt, then scooped it back up. Since I called the out, the defense ran off the field. The runner gets up and runs to third base. The coach at third base asks for time and comes to me saying that she thought F6 dropped the ball and could I check with my partner. I went to my partner and he confirmed that the ball was on the ground during the tag attempt.

Where would you place the runner and resume the game?

Wow.... pulled the trigger a little too fast.....don't you just hate it when that happens :-)

So F6 tried to make the tag (but missed), you called the R1 out (3rd out). F6 probably would have thrown the ball to F5 who was standing on 3B (???) for another tag attempt.

I am in favor of getting the call right no matter what but sometimes it's better to just leave things alone. But if you're going to do the right thing and change your call I would probably return R1 to 2B unless in your judgment there was no chance for a play at 3B OR F6 could not have recovered for another tag attempt, then I'd give R1 3B

I'm not sure that I was much help.....glad it was you and not me (doesn't that make you feel better?)

[wadeintothem]

I also would put runner at 2b.. its the only fair call.. there is no justification to allow the run.

That said.. for sake of discussion, i'm wondering if there is any justification to stick to your guns on the call.... here is why..

Were this an actual "appeal play" -- its too late once all the players left the field.

So heres what sound like happened.. or could have happened for sake of discussion.

Bad out - call.. coach signals runner to stay put.. defense calls all its players in.. D coach and runner stand around patiently waiting for all D players to leave field.. once the players left the field he sends the runner, calls time at 3b (one wonders why in this case he didnt just send her all the way home) . then appeals "hey blue, she dropped the ball".

Well tough crap.. make the "appeal" dont stand around waiting to gain advantage then make the "appeal" on the call.

[WestMichiganBlue]

No, it is not an "actual appeal play!" But most coachs will ask us to "appeal" to our partners. In other words, get together and review the play. Can happen any time.

This is a college game. The fielder knew she dropped the ball and thought she was getting away with something. The runner obviously knew the ball was dropped because she ran to the next base rather than leave the field. The only one in the dark was the umpire!

Bring the team back on the field, reverse the call, and leave the runner at 3B.

WMB

[wadeintothem]

Originally posted by WestMichiganBlue
No, it is not an "actual appeal play!" But most coachs will ask us to "appeal" to our partners. In other words, get together and review the play. Can happen any time.

This is a college game. The fielder knew she dropped the ball and thought she was getting away with something. The runner obviously knew the ball was dropped because she ran to the next base rather than leave the field. The only one in the dark was the umpire!

Bring the team back on the field, reverse the call, and leave the runner at 3B.

WMB

I know its not an actual "appeal play" .. it was for the sake of discussion, not what I would do.

IMO.. You cant allow the advance to 3B though, I am very curious at to your justification for that?

[wadeintothem]

and no.. asking an ump to seek help cant happen "any time" .. 2 innings later.. hey blue 2 innings ago she dropped the ball..
well tough crap.

So,what is the cut off .. that was the purpose of my discussion and were we to use the guidance of the Appeal play rule - well this one was too late.

[booker227]

I believe that appeals should be asked for immediately, before any subsequent action In this case though, the defense was off the field. But, after confering with my partner, I would have brought D back on the field and kept the runner at second. I won't forecast extra bases, runs, or outs. I have learned, through trial and mucho error to pause before any call I make, sell the close ones. After this, I'm sure that you will do the same. Great learning experience.

[Dakota]

According to the 2004 NCAA rule book (the latest I have here, and I don't feel like going to the web site) and the 2005 ASA rule book, either the out would stand or the runner's advance would stand (I think!?!)

15-9-c (NCAA) and 10-6-C (ASA) gives the umpire the authority to rectify any situation where a reversed or delayed call places either team in jeopardy. Clearly, if the call is reversed, it would place the defense in jeopardy.

However, the rule goes on to say that

"This correction is not possible after one legal or illegal pitch has been thrown or after the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory."

ASA has similar language.

So, given this, you can reverse the call alright, but the runner's advance stands. Or you could not reverse the call and the play stands. But you can't reverse the call and put the runner back.

At least that is what it seems to say to me.

[wadeintothem]

Where do you get that Dakota? Even with the rule you posted.. the ump can rectify it fairly, he neednt allow the advance by rule, spirit of rule, or common sense.

The advance happened during a suspension of play - the ump called out 3, it was end of inning by announcement (verbal or nonverbal) of the ump.. the fielders left the field play, it was the end of the inning.

Upon reversal she goes to 2b.

This is why I said the coach should have sent the runner home though before calling time, on the hope that the umpire would be one of you guys.

[mcrowder]

Sure you can put the runner back - in essence, you ended the inning when you called the 3rd out. Anything that happened after that didn't really happen.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by wadeintothem
Where do you get that Dakota?

Well, I did try to indicate that I am allowing for me being too literal here, but...

Originally posted by wadeintothem
The advance happened during a suspension of play - the ump called out 3, it was end of inning by announcement (verbal or nonverbal) of the ump.. the fielders left the field play, it was the end of the inning.

When else would the fielders leave the field of play? This rule is not concerned with player mistakes (for example, thinking the 2nd out was the 3rd out and leaving the field)... it is concerned with umpire mistakes, which can cause the defense to leave the field. So, if you allow the "suspension of play" exception to this phrase about infielders leaving fair territory, when would this phrase have any application at all?

Originally posted by wadeintothem
Even with the rule you posted.. the ump can rectify it fairly, he neednt allow the advance by rule, spirit of rule, or common sense.

Spirit of the rule, fine, but making the correction after the infielders have left the field contradicts the rule, doesn't it?

I agree with the common sense part, and, frankly, if I had been the umpire I would have applied 15-9-c and rectified the situation (put the runner back on 2nd). But, after reading the rule, I think I would have been wrong. That leaves us with letting the call stand, since I would not allow the runner's advance to stand (since my hasty / obstructed view call caused the defense to allow the runner to advance).

[wadeintothem]

Originally posted by Dakota

Well, I did try to indicate that I am allowing for me being too literal here, but...

When else would the fielders leave the field of play? This rule is not concerned with player mistakes (for example, thinking the 2nd out was the 3rd out and leaving the field)... it is concerned with umpire mistakes, which can cause the defense to leave the field. So, if you allow the "suspension of play" exception to this phrase about infielders leaving fair territory, when would this phrase have any application at all?

Spirit of the rule, fine, but making the correction after the infielders have left the field contradicts the rule, doesn't it?

I agree with the common sense part, and, frankly, if I had been the umpire I would have applied 15-9-c and rectified the situation (put the runner back on 2nd). But, after reading the rule, I think I would have been wrong. That leaves us with letting the call stand, since I would not allow the runner's advance to stand (since my hasty / obstructed view call caused the defense to allow the runner to advance).

Fair enough - I also think that if all the players left field the technically correct call is call stands, I posted something to that effect in my first post. I dont have an ASA book after 2004 so I just never refer to it and the language isnt really there in Fed except on appeal play (which this isnt). ( i get my asa book in 2 weeks).. some day I'll download NCAA .. but I have a rules diff asa/nfhs/ncaa so I never really feel the need to.

I also think that on a personnal level, a coach behaving in this manner maybe warrants a "call stands" call.. so the technically correct call is also possibly the fairest call..

Even though I'm with everyone but WMB in that I would have put the runner to 2B and brought the def out...


Wonder what the OP did...

[dweezil24]

Similar call in a game I worked this weekend.

-Out call at 3rd to end the inning
-Offense's coach politely asks the umpire to ask for help
-The other ump (me) saw the leg sneak in before the tag
-Defense had already left the field
-We let the call stand

Maybe we should have called the D back onto the field, to prevent teams from just hustling off the field on an obviously blown call. Or else told everyone to stay where they were while we had our discussion.

[CecilOne]

How about ...
call it OBS (fake tag) with no advance because if the call was "safe" - after F6 picked up the ball, the runner would not have reached 3rd.