Third out without a force play

[collinb]

I need help on finding a rule. National Fed. Rules
Here is the situation. Two outs with runners on second and third. Ground ball to shortstop who bobbles ball and drops it. Once the runner on second sees the ball bobbled heads to third. Runner on third is heading home on the pitch. The shortstop decides to throw to third. I am base ump sees a tag and calls the third out. Mean while the runner on third crosses home plate before the out. Now a discussion happens on whether the run scores. The plate umpires ask my opinion and I say that if the third out is not a force play and the runner crossed the plate before the third out the run counts.
One of the coaches feverishly goes through rule book for the next two innings and then convinces the plate umpire that the run should only count if the batter-runner made it to first before the third out.
Someone help me here. I can't find the rule the coach showed the plate umpire. As it turned out it was not a close game. Home team 10 visitors 2.

[Edited by collinb on May 3rd, 2001 at 01:27 AM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

You are not going to find it because it isn't there.

The coach's argument would be true IF his team made an instant live-ball appeal and tagged 1B or the BR.

Since you didn't state that happened, I assume it did not. Therefore, the run counts.

[mick]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
You are not going to find it because it isn't there.

The coach's argument would be true IF his team made an instant live-ball appeal and tagged 1B or the BR.

Since you didn't state that happened, I assume it did not. Therefore, the run counts.

Mike,
In sequence,
1.> R1 crosses plate. Then...
2.> R2 gets tagged by F6, for third out.Then...
3.> R3 touches 1B.
Then live ball appeal, for apparent 4th out, to 1B, or R3, even though R3 touched 1B ?
Thanks.

mick

[oppool]

If R3 finished his run to 1st before being put out then the run scores and there is no available appeal on the play at 1st

Bottom line run should count

My view

Don

[Dakota]

Originally posted by collinb
I need help on finding a rule.
Here is the situation. Two outs with runners on second and third. Ground ball to shortstop who bobbles ball and drops it. Once the runner on second sees the ball bobbled heads to third. running on third is heading home on pitch. The shortstop decides to throw to third. I am base ump sees a tag and calls the third out. Mean while the runner on third crosses home plate before the out. Now a discussion happens on whether the run scores. The plate umpires ask my opinion and I say that if the third out is not a force play and the runner crossed the plate before the third out the run counts.
One of the coaches feverishly goes through rule book for the next two innings and then convinces the plate umpire that the run should only count if the batter-runner made it to first before the third out.
Someone help me here. I can't find the rule the coach showed the plate umpire. As it turned out it was not a close game. Home team 10 visitors 2.

Point 1: The rules section of the ASA book is only 120 or so pages. I am sitting here trying to imagine a coach "feverishly" going through this book for "the next two innings"

Point 2: There is an ASA rule (8-2-D) that says the BR is out if she fails to advance to 1B and enters the team area (dugout). This can't be a fourth out appeal, though, I don't believe.

Point 3: There is an ASA rule (8-8-G) that says the BR can be appealed if she fails to touch 1B. This would be a force out, so no run would score. But two innings later is too late for the appeal.

From your description, it sounds like the BR touched 1B, but she did it after the 3rd out. This is not the situation for a fourth out appeal. The run scores.

There is no rule that says that the run should only count if the batter-runner made it to first before the third out.

Sounds like the coach ran a pretty good bluff on an umpire who did not know the rules very well.

[collinb]

Thanks to all who responded.
I thought I had it right, but when they said they showed it to my partner I knew the best source for quick replies was this forum.