4th Out?

[oppool]

Okay here is a discussion on the BB board that seems to be a lot of disagreement on and would like to clarify under our softball rules

SIT:R1 on 3rd R2 on 2nd 2outs B5(slow runner) up to the plate hits a grounder between F5 and F6, F6 make a diving play stops the ball and throws to F5 who put the tag on R2 sliding into 3rd for the 3rd out R1 has already crossed home before the put-out B5 about 4/5 down the baseline to 1st hears the out call on R2 quits running and heads back to the dugout to get his glove. F5 throws over to F3 who tags 1st.

Does this work under the 4th out appeal to nulify the run??


Thanks

Don

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Yes Don.........

I would think that this would be allowed under ASA.

Joel

[whiskers_ump]

I agree with Gulf Coast Blue

The run would in this case would be nulified.

Can not find my 2001 book (ASA), but Points of Emphasis
Appeals M. goes along with what your talking about (pg120)

[Roger Greene]

Don,

I don't know about ASA, but in Fed or USSSA I don't think you would allow this kind of 4th out.

I would allow an appeal of a baserunning error for the 4th out that might disallow a run, but for the arguements given in the BB list, I don't think this is a baserunning error. Once a third out is made no baserunning errors can occur. A missed base before the third out would be a baserunning error and therefor subject to an appeal.

Don't let the unpublished PBUC ruling get too deep in your head. I'm not sure it will last.

Roger Greene,
Member UT

Added statement: I just read the POE-Appeals in a 1999 ASA book. Nothing I can see would justify the 4th out in this sitch. Point M discussses a runner being appealed for leaving 3rd base early. Point A lists the types of appeals that may be made, and of the 4 not one of them is failing to advance to the next base after a third out is declared. I don't think the call is justified in ASA unless something has been added since 1999.
Roger

[Edited by Roger Greene on Mar 30th, 2001 at 08:39 PM]

[oppool]

Boy, we sure do agree in here a lot quicker than they do on the BB board. I was also looking back in past topics and Mike(IRISHMAFIA)had a similiar post and which he confer this would cancel the run but found it interesting he started the topic with fast-pitch only is there any reason this would be different in slow pitch?

These are just thoughts not dening the ruling but isnt this in conflict since in the rules it states that the next half inning starts immediatlly after the 3rd OUT is recorded but we are insisting the runner completes his run??

This rule also to me seems to advantage the defense, for actually making a bad choice on a play thought rules were made to keeps things even not to gave one side a advantage.

While I am venting on a another rain-out night should say I never have understand why we let a batter run to 1st after a drop 3rd strike especially at younger levels in the major this might effect 5 games a year at LL level I've seen this rule come into effect 5 times in an inning just doesnt make since to me.


Yes, I know we are hired guns to govern the rule not make them or interperit.


Finished Venting

Don

[IRISHMAFIA]

Well, I was all ready to post the following:

"Sorry, but in ASA the run counts.
Rule 5.5.B.3 NOTE: An appeal can be made after the third out in order to nullify a run.
This is not an appeal play, and there is nothing else in the rule book which would support nullifying the run."

And then I open up my case book and on page 5-3, there is play 5.5-7 which does support substituting a "force out" for the previously made third out, thus nullifying the run.

As I noted, there is nothing in the rule book, including the POE, to support this ruling and I still question it. Next week, there will be a guest instructor at the Delaware ASA State Umpire School. He is a member of the National Staff who is fundamental in producing the case book and I fully intend to bring this question to him.

As far as myself previously supporting such a play, I believe if you go back an read the play you will find that it involved a missed base "fourth out appeal", not the continuance (is that a word?) of a play.

Remember, in baseball and some softball rules, a runner can be considered to have "abandoned" the base to which they are advancing or entitled to if they discontinue their effort. In ASA, no such rule exist as a runner must enter dead ball territory to be ruled out for abandonment. If this is the case, then I can accept the throw to first as an appeal play. But if the runner is just slow, I don't believe the fourth out appeal would apply.

Though my opinion, I will make a serious attempt to see what the man who puts the book together has to say.

[oppool]

Mike,

If I missed quoted in earlier reply I am sorry I believe more to your words were "B3 failed to run to 1st F2 threw to F3 for the 4th out run doesnt count" I assumed this would be the same as the runner not completing his run.

From post dated Jan 23,2001


My Apologies

Don

[Edited by oppool on Mar 30th, 2001 at 09:05 PM]

[Roger Greene]

Mike,
I'll buy the force out if it was a missed base during playing action. I don't think tht a runner is required to continue to advance after a third out ends an inning.

In the sitch presented the fourth out is a subseqent out, not an appeal of a baserunning infraction listed as the subject of an appeal, and is not even a force out.

Roger Greene,
Member UT

(I'm not even watching runners after a third out is recorded)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Don,

You're 100% right. I totally forgot about that play. Actually, that was when conversations needed a kickstart and I just quoted the case book.

I don't necessarily agree with the ruling and in this case, wasn't even paying attention to what I was doing.

Thanks for the slap up alongside the head, now my eyes are straight d:-)

[Steve M]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Remember, in baseball and some softball rules, a runner can be considered to have "abandoned" the base to which they are advancing or entitled to if they discontinue their effort. In ASA, no such rule exist as a runner must enter dead ball territory to be ruled out for abandonment. If this is the case, then I can accept the throw to first as an appeal play. But if the runner is just slow, I don't believe the fourth out appeal would apply.

Though my opinion, I will make a serious attempt to see what the man who puts the book together has to say.

Mike,
Maybe I'm missing what you meant, but what about 8.8.U? Doesn't this say that a runner is out for "abandonment" when he abandons his base AND enters dead ball territory? My understanding is that the runner must enter dead ball territory to be ruled out for abandonment.

[Steve M]

I agree with Roger. Unless something very strange has happened, I'm not watching runners after another runner has made the third out. I'll go clean the rubber - none of us wants to use a dirty rubber, right?

[oppool]

Okay guys

Looking in the rule book I dont see where abandonment or failing to advance would be a appeal play for the 4th out.
stating 8-2d "When the BR fails to advance to 1st base and enters the team area after a batted fair ball" is when BR is to be called OUT. I dont believe this can be appealed if it happen after the 3rd out was recorded then play was over


JMHO


Don

[Edited by oppool on Mar 31st, 2001 at 01:22 AM]

[Roger Greene]

Thanks, Steve.

I was beginning to wonder if I'd turned invisable.

Roger

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Roger........


I think I was wrong in my original assesment.....

Thanks for clearing things up.

Joel

[IRISHMAFIA]

Steve M,

I think you must be missing something because the point you raised is exactly what you copied from my previous post. In ASA, a runner must enter dead ball territory to be declared out for abandonment.

And I agree that failing to touch a base one is "forced" to touch after the 3rd out of the inning probably shouldn't be an appeal play. I was simply stating that if I could handle that interpretation much easier than just continuing the play on a slow runner for a fourth out as a means to nullify a run.