Umpiring theory

[CecilOne]

1) BU in B, runner sliding into 2nd, called out by BU on force play. PU is into “hold area”, observing, sees that F6 passed the base before catching the ball. Defense (sorry, offense, see below) gets BU to ask for help, umpires confer, decide runner is safe. Offense (sorry, defense, see below) coach now confers with PU, objects to procedure and to PU being further away than BU, wants BU to say what he saw. BU says it looked like an out, but the fielder’s feet were screened by the runner and agrees that PU had better angle. Comments?

2) Preventive umpiring sit.
F5 consistently blocking 3rd base on potential pickoffs and BU signaling OBS each time.
Runners getting back end up colliding with fielder or stepping on fielder’s foot, even when no throw. Strictly for preventive umpiring, avoiding contention, would you:
a) tell runner to avoid contact/provocation, because you see the OBS
b) tell runner’s coach to avoid contact/provocation, because you see the OBS
c) tell F5 to stop OBS
d) not tell F5 to stop OBS because it’s coaching
e) do/say nothing until a runner is tagged on a play
f) combinations of these

3) Coach degrading and insulting players on the field. Say anything or not?

Maybe I should have made this 3 topics, but there is a relationship.


[Edited by CecilOne on Jun 7th, 2005 at 02:13 PM]

[mcrowder]

1) As PU, I would not let offensive coach discuss BU's reversal with me - it was BU's call. As BU, I would BRIEFLY explain why the reversal was made and sent coach on his way.

2) After 3 or 4 of these (maybe 2 if 12U or under), I might mention it to the coach between innings, in case he/she wasn't aware. If there have been issues with the coach prior to this, I probably wouldn't bring it up at all. But it's coach's to handle - I doubt I'd be discussing it at all with the player.

3) None of my business.

[SRW]

1) If I'm BU, I ask the PU: "Did you see anything differently that would make me change my call?". Obviously he did. I would then change my call. If the coach wants an explination, I tell him that I was screened, but my partner had a better angle on the feet. (BTW, coach can object to "procedure" all he likes - isn't gonna get him anywhere.) If I'm PU, I tell the BU what I saw and let him make the call. If the coach wants to talk to me about it, I'm refering him to my BU. I'm just another set of eyes, not the one making the call.

2) I'm not saying anything (combo of D and E). The OBS rule is in the book. Both coaches know the rule. I'll call it if I see it.

3) If it's the coach's players: I'm not saying anything. If it's one coach saying stuff to the other team's players, then I'm gonna talk USC with the coach.

[Dakota]

1) I think you have offensive coach and defensive coach reversed. But, whatever, I agree with mcrowder on this one.

2) JO play? Due to injury potential, you could warn F5 to cut it out. If continued after warning, then you'd be discussing a new F5 with the coach.

3) Not an umpire issue.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by Dakota
1) I think you have offensive coach and defensive coach reversed. But, whatever, I agree with mcrowder on this one.
How would I live w/o you catching my mistakes? Thanks.

2) JO play? Due to injury potential, you could warn F5 to cut it out. If continued after warning, then you'd be discussing a new F5 with the coach.
PONY. Which means try to prevent the OBS, rather than the contention, even though the offense coach might complain about us "coaching".

3) Not an umpire issue.
My thought too, but UIC advised "no degrading"

[ToledoCYOBlue]

Had a very similar sitch to Cecil's #2 in a game last night... middle school church league game, similar in skill level and general knowledge to a weak 14U rec game.

F6 consistently setting up in the baseline, runners having to tip-toe around her as they headed to third on batted balls or steal attempts. Both offensive coach and several players asked me about it. My response to the coach was to assure him that I saw the OBS, and to please not coach his girls to initiate contact with the F6. I will make the proper award if/when it's warranted. My response to the players was to tell them to talk to their coach. I spent much of the game with the right arm out, but never had to make an actual award.

I absolutely understand Cecil's thought about preventive umpiring, but I think it's in our best interest to stay far from the "Am I coaching or not?" line. This type of thing comes up often in this league...good to hear the opinions of some vet umps on best way to handle this.

Charlie

[Dakota]

It would matter (speaking #2) if I thought the actions was a skilled intentional thing, or an inept bumbling thing. If skilled intentional, then a warning to the player is in order. If inept bumbling, then a word to the coach to have a word with his players is in order (in the name of safety). No ejection even considered in this latter case.

Regarding the correction, Cecil, glad to help!

Regarding "degrading" - I might have a quiet word with the coach if it was really degrading and the kids were very young (12U or younger). Or, if as in your case, so instructed by the UIC. Otherwise, since I have no real jurisdiction here, I'm staying out of it.

[Edited by Dakota on Jun 7th, 2005 at 02:26 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota

3) Not an umpire issue.

Speaking ASA.

Yeah, it is. ASA 4.7.C.3

This used to be covered in 10.9 which I would like to see them put back in the book.

[Steve M]

1st question - I agree with MCrowder. The coach is not going to discuss another umpire's call with me. Talk to that umpire & we'll handle it properly.

2nd question - The college game has this one pretty well covered. "Rounding & returning" obstruction the first time by a player gets a warning, the next time(s) by that same fielder, leads to a 1 base award to the obstructed runner. Put a sever penalty on the infraction and it will go away. I've had to issue a few warnings, but no awarded bases.

3rd question - This one will depend on a few things - age group, level of play, how loud is coach (only heard by player directed at, heard by a few players nearby, or have the dead been wakened). If the coach is speaking to the other team this way, it's dealt with immediately.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
ASA 4.7.C.3

"coaches may not use language that will reflect negatively..."

And you have a problem with the casual profanity rule? At least I have a pretty good idea what profanity IS. What is "negative language"?

Why, BTW, is this rule specific about application to [b]base[/u] coaches?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota

"coaches may not use language that will reflect negatively..."

And you have a problem with the casual profanity rule? At least I have a pretty good idea what profanity IS. What is "negative language"?

Why, BTW, is this rule specific about application to base[/u] coaches?

Yes. I believe this was one of the rules referred to in the elimination of 10.9 (Violations and Penalties). Personally, I would like to see 10.9 returned to the book.

But you are overreading. I simply responded to the posts that stated this wasn't an umpire issue. I didn't say I was fond of the rule, but I believe it is much easier to define a negative comment as it is to determine what someone may or may not believe to be profanity.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by Dakota
It would matter (speaking #2) if I thought the actions was a skilled intentional thing, or an inept bumbling thing. If skilled intentional, then a warning to the player is in order. If inept bumbling, then a word to the coach to have a word with his players is in order (in the name of safety). No ejection even considered in this latter case.

Regarding the correction, Cecil, glad to help!

Regarding "degrading" - I might have a quiet word with the coach if it was really degrading and the kids were very young (12U or younger). Or, if as in your case, so instructed by the UIC. Otherwise, since I have no real jurisdiction here, I'm staying out of it.

[Edited by Dakota on Jun 7th, 2005 at 02:26 PM]

Definitely a practiced skill, identical each time.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by mcrowder
1) As PU, I would not let offensive coach discuss BU's reversal with me - it was BU's call. As BU, I would BRIEFLY explain why the reversal was made and sent coach on his way.

2) After 3 or 4 of these (maybe 2 if 12U or under), I might mention it to the coach between innings, in case he/she wasn't aware. If there have been issues with the coach prior to this, I probably wouldn't bring it up at all. But it's coach's to handle - I doubt I'd be discussing it at all with the player.

3) None of my business.

1) Generally agree, made an exception because:
- coach was already standing next to me (PU) and I thought it would be quicker,
- it was my view that we used
- partner (BU) is a rookie with minimal procedure confidence

2) I agree with communicating with coaches only, but is that helping the defense team if the fielder stops OBS because I tell the coach?

[Steve M]

Cecil,

You asked "2) I agree with communicating with coaches only, but is that helping the defense team if the fielder stops OBS because I tell the coach?" It's an infraction with no real penalty. It's why I like the NCAA position on this infraction - warn once, then advance 1 base.