Fly ball, no tag up, ball out of bounds on appeal

[SactoBlue]

Situation:
Runner on 1st, no outs, batter hits fly ball to RF. Runner takes off on contact, no tag up. Ball caught, fielder throws to cutoff, cutoff throws to 2nd baseman nowhere near 2nd then yelling starts - "No tag, no tag." Runner is now around 2B. Second baseman throws to 1B and fielder misses ball and ball rolls into dugout. I signal dead ball and play stops. Runner then retreats back to first underdead ball period. Where do I put the runner? He was around 2b when throw took place heading for 3b.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Two bases from the runner's position when the throw left the 2B's hand. If runner was between 2nd and 3rd, award is home.

[SRW]

I would agree with that.

You gave the runner ample time to complete his baserunning responsibilities before the award. It doesn't matter what direction the runner's going, only what the last base touched was.

Although I could make a case that the last base legally touched was 1B at the time of the throw (at the start of the pitch)... and award only 3B.

Thoughts anyone?

[bkbjones]

SRW,I think we debated this in a different forum before...(going to borrow 2x4 from Rufus.)

The last base legally touched was still second base. Ya gots to let them complete their responsibilities (retoutching first), but if they were around second going to third at the time of the throw, the award is home.

[SactoBlue]

I guess my dilemma comes from ..........

1. Dummy runner was off around 2b but no tagup
2. I signal dead ball, play stops. This allows him to retreat, no penalty and no chance of appeal by defense.
3. We now reward him by "awarding" him, for being dumb, home?
4. Dummy defense was also created mess in that it tossed the ball in dead ball territory.

It just seems that the home award is too much.....but of course....rules are rules. I had no clue about the award at the time and just gave him 2B .... but now I can see that wasn't right....

My gut says ..... runner, you got saved by a defensive error that allowed you to avoid being surely put out. Count your blessings you could retreat to 1B without penalty .... but my gut wasn't right giving him 2B either.

Are we finished? Is home the award?

[mcrowder]

Avoid the gut. Avoid what "seems" fair. Go by the book. 2 bases from the last legally touched base from the TOT. The award is home.

[SRW]

Originally posted by bkbjones
SRW,I think we debated this in a different forum before...(going to borrow 2x4 from Rufus.)

The last base legally touched was still second base. Ya gots to let them complete their responsibilities (retoutching first), but if they were around second going to third at the time of the throw, the award is home.

I said that SPECIFICALLY for Rufus... I'm glad you caught it and will share it with him!

Seriously tho, I believe awarding home is the correct thing to do in this situation.

[BuggBob]

In USSSA Slow pitch if the runner was returning to first when the ball was thrown out of play then they would be placed a second. Direction of travel does matter to USSSA

[whistleone]

Those who say the award is home are correct (POE #38).

"Runners are always awarded two baseson overthrows which go out of play or become blocked as a result of hitting loose equipment belonging to or a team member of the defensive team that does not belong on the field. Regardless of who made the throw, two bases are awarded from the last base touched at the time the ball left the hand. Direction of runners has no bearing on the award. When an overthrow is made on a runner returning to a base, the runner is awarded two bases from that base. EXCEPTION: If the runner was returning to first base and the throw was from the outfield and it left the outfielder's hand while the runner was between 2B and 3B, but the runner was between 1B and 2B when the ball went out of play, the runner would be awarded home."

[Dakota]

Even though the POE may use the phrase "last base touched", the rule doesn't, and this phrase in the POE causes a lot of unnecessary misunderstanding of the award.

"Last base touched" or "last base legally touched" or simlar language have absolutely nothing to do with the base award.

The award is dependent upon one thing - the position of the runner at the time of the throw.

If the runner has missed a base or left early, that has no bearing whatsoever on the award. If the runner does not return to retouch then the runner remains liable for out on appeal.

[CecilOne]

Which means even if the runner missed 2nd, but passed it, the award is home. Assuming that the runner touches 2nd after tagging up at 1st.

Most of the time, I respond to those thinking two bases is too much by saying it really is a two base limit on the runner when the ball is often unplayable by the defense. Especially when it's the BR or a runner who was on 1st. This is one case where that does not really fit, as the runner was also at fault.

BTW, a play we had recently. Runner on 1st, batter hits ball to F6. F6 looks at 2nd, decides it's too late, thinks again and throws over 1st into dead ball land. As BU in B, I was judging the timing as well, to get ready for the call. I saw that by the time F6 decided and finally threw, the runner reached 2nd. Even better, my PU partner was watching the same lead runner, so we had no trouble agreeing on the award of home. The runner's team won the game by one run.

[justmom]

Could someone comment on NFHS rule 8-4-3-g, exception (2). The penalty says a runner may return to touch a missed base or base left too soon..., but exception 2 says no runner may return to touch a missed base or base left too soon if she has advanced, touched and remains a base beyond the missed base or base left too soon. I'm really not clear on the apparent contradiction here. What do they mean by "remains"? HELP!