View was Obstructed so I called "SAFE"

[CoachBlue]

I was calling a 12U rec. game last night. Had a runner on 1st. The ball was hit torward the 2nd baseman. The 1st baseman came over and got the ball and rushed over and dove glove first torward 1st base. The play was going to very close. At the exact moment everything came together for some unknown reason the 2nd baseman stepped directly between me and the play. I could't see the play so I called "SAFE". My thinking was I didn't see the out made so I couldn't call an out. I can't call what I didn't see. Of course I didn't really see the "Safe" either.

Did I make the right call?

If so, and the defensive coach had ask me to ask for help, should I ask for help? This is really not an Appeal type play or is it?

Of course if I do ask for help and the batter runner was clearly out and we change the call the Offensive coach is going to go into orbit.

Just a guestion for some you Blues with more experience than me.

Thanks In Advance

[Edited by CoachBlue on Apr 14th, 2005 at 02:22 PM]

[Alameda]

As a fellow rookie, I'm calling Co-Ed (D and DD divs). I don't know what would happen to you in higher divs, but in the games I'm calling there would be nothing wrong with you calling your PU over to see if he was able to see the play. In fact, if your PU was doing his job, he would be in a good position to call 'pulled foot/missed tag' etc, at 1st.

If he can't help you, then yes, I guess you made the right call, as you saw it (or didn't see it in this case).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CoachBlue
I was calling a 12U rec. game last night. Had a runner on 1st. The ball was hit torward the 2nd baseman. The 1st baseman came over and got the ball and rushed over and dove glove first torward 1st base. The play was going to very close. At the exact moment everything came together for some unknown reason the 2nd baseman stepped directly between me and the play. I could't see the play so I called "SAFE". My thinking was I didn't see the out made so I couldn't call an out. I can't call what I didn't see. Of course I didn't really see the "Safe" either.

Did I make the right call?

Depends on whether you were confident your partner could have helped. After all, he had a runner to worry about at the other side of the diamond. If you felt s/he was in no position to make the call, yes.

If so, and the defensive coach had ask me to ask for help, should I ask for help? This is really not an Appeal type play or is it?

Yes. At least get together and see what your partner may have to offer. If you believe it is enough to change your call, do it.

Of course if I do ask for help and the batter runner was clearly out and we change the call the Offensive coach is going to go into orbit.

Just as long as s/he files a flight plan!

You make an effort to get the call correct. If it were reversed, s/he'd be thanking you.

[Alameda]

OOps, sorry I forgot you had R1 @ 1st and your PU was busy too.

Pffft, rookies.

[Edited by Alameda on Apr 14th, 2005 at 02:44 PM]

[bluezebra]

Talk to your partner, AWAY from players and coaches. "Did you see the play?" "What did you see"?

Bob

Good job, never guess an out. Yes, talk to you partner away from everyone and if he saw the out it is your call to change and only you should change it. I am sure if he didn't see the play he would tell you he didn't see it. Somebody is going to be upset, it shouldn't matter to you which one.

[TexBlue]

Like everyone else, make the safe call and if asked properly by the defensive coach, talk to your partner. If they can help you out, take the input and make the call then. Soundls like you handled it properly, no matter at what level you were calling. You always want to try to get it right.

[booker227]

If you have a partner, and realize that you are blocked from the play, point to that partner BEFORE you make the call. Try not to make a call, confer, and then change the call. It makes you look bad.
In your pregame, talk about this situation and come to an agreement on how it is to be answered.

[rwest]

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B. A pop fly hit to shallow center. The center fielder was playing shallow so the runners were holding because it looked like the ball was going to be caught. The center fielder dropped the ball. The runners advance. I'm PU, by the way. I run up to get in position to make the call. I'm right down third base line about 5 feet from the bag. I know, I should have been more inside the diamond but I wasnt. The throw pulls F5 off of the bag, he swipes at R1 as R1 rounds 3B. R1 is off of the bag and lunges back to the bag. F5 attempts a tag. It was at this point that F1, who had come over to back up the throw to 3b steps in my line of sight. I didn't see a tag on the second attempt. It all happened so fast, I had no time to adjust my angle. I did what I was trained to do. If you don't see an out, don't guess them out. So I called him safe. The defense appealed. Fortunately for me, my partner was experienced (more so than I) and had the angle. He saw the tag and I reversed my ruling.

In the situation you mentioned I would have done the same. It's your call to make and you didn't see an out, so you have to call them safe. Then when the defense appeals, if they appeal, you go to your partner. If he didn't see it, stick with your call. If he did, and the runner was out, then reverse it. It the defense doesn't appeal, that's their fault. You call what you see and you didn't see an out. So they were safe.

[bkbjones]

Oh this type of play, IMHO, you shouldn't point to your partner.

Again, IMHO, you call the runner safe...coach appeals ("How the !@#$ can you miss that" may not be a proper appeal)...go to your partner, get information, then make the proper call.

Now...on a pulled foot I will point.

Had a young man up here on a recent weekend. His momma told me she thinks he is the greatest umpire in the world, which is ok for a momma to love her son unconditionally, but she REALLY believed it.

Anyway...He was in "C" and had an obvious pulled foot at first. Of course had he moved inside even half a step, he might have had a little better angle. Offensive team, the tournament director and everyone else went berserk. So he hollers from his position to his partner:

"Hey, Blue, whattaya got?"

And, of course, we had a safe...and a butt chewin after the game.

He was supposed to do one more game that night, and 3 the next day. Fortunately he "felt sick" and has not been back since...

So...be sure and go to your partner in a proper way...and if you do need to confer, do it professionally away from everyone else.

[debeau]

With a runner on one the PU is still in position to help .
The PU takes off up the 1st base line to check just for this sort of thing then button hooks over to the holding bay and if necessary moves up to third to take the call .
After all that you can ask you partner and personally I feel you can be open .
"John I was obscured have you got a call on that one "
This leaves both team coaches in no doubt and they would be rather silly to come into the diamond after this .
Its our job to get it right .
You are a team not individuals .
Ask if you have to .
Its better to confer/ask than make a decision then change it .

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by debeau
With a runner on one the PU is still in position to help .
The PU takes off up the 1st base line to check just for this sort of thing then button hooks over to the holding bay and if necessary moves up to third to take the call .
After all that you can ask you partner and personally I feel you can be open .
"John I was obscured have you got a call on that one "
This leaves both team coaches in no doubt and they would be rather silly to come into the diamond after this .

Speaking of looking silly, what happens when "John" says, "I didn't see it"?

Or makes a call when others observed John watching something else? Not a lot of things worse than an umpire caught in a lie.

As much as we would all like to be sure there are two sets of eyes, it just doesn't always happen that way. Have a private talk with your partner. Obviously, there will still be no doubt in the coaches' minds that they have run out of options, but that will NOT keep them from entering the field to "discuss" the play.

[debeau]

You are right Irish it would be silly .
I suppose I answer in an ideal world where your partner is watching as he/she is supoosed to do .
I am still in favour of open short questions rather than whispered discussions as it does save time .
I suppose it has all to do with level of play level of umpires etc.
Yes you are right it has happened to me where my partner has said "ahhh I wasnt looking " and it is embarrasing .

[Stevetheump]

Originally Posted by CoachBlue

I was calling a 12U rec. game last night. Had a runner on 1st. The ball was hit torward the 2nd baseman. The 1st baseman came over and got the ball and rushed over and dove glove first torward 1st base. The play was going to very close. At the exact moment everything came together for some unknown reason the 2nd baseman stepped directly between me and the play. I could't see the play so I called "SAFE". My thinking was I didn't see the out made so I couldn't call an out. I can't call what I didn't see. Of course I didn't really see the "Safe" either.

Did I make the right call?

If so, and the defensive coach had ask me to ask for help, should I ask for help? This is really not an Appeal type play or is it?

Of course if I do ask for help and the batter runner was clearly out and we change the call the Offensive coach is going to go into orbit.

Just a guestion for some you Blues with more experience than me.

Thanks In Advance

[Edited by CoachBlue on Apr 14th, 2005 at 02:22 PM]

Yes, you made the right call, Coachblue. NEVER "guess" an out. I had one last year:
R1 on first and I'm the base umpire in the "B" position (near the second baseman). Now, these guys play a DEEP infield. I'm a good 6 feet on the grass. Batter hits a ground ball to the SS. He dives to his right, stops the ball, but makes a LOW throw to the 2nd baseman covering 2nd (and his foot firmly on the base). Now, I'm in a DIRECT LINE between the SS and 2nd base and I cannot see when the 2nd baseman received the ball. I initially called the runner "safe." The plate umpire calls "time." WITHOUT hesitation, I went in to my partner and asked: "Chris, did the 2nd baseman catch the ball before the runner got there?" He replied: "Yes." So, I turned around and said to the runner at 2nd: "Runner at 2nd, you're out." Now, HE didn't change my call, but provided me with information. Now, it's up to ME to either stick with my initial call OR CHANGE IT. I changed it. I have NO problem doing that and have done so a handful of times over the course of 30-plus years on the diamond.
Again, coach, NEVER "GUESS" AN OUT.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Stevetheump

Yes, you made the right call, Coachblue. NEVER "guess" an out. I had one last year:
R1 on first and I'm the base umpire in the "B" position (near the second baseman). Now, these guys play a DEEP infield. I'm a good 6 feet on the grass. Batter hits a ground ball to the SS. He dives to his right, stops the ball, but makes a LOW throw to the 2nd baseman covering 2nd (and his foot firmly on the base). Now, I'm in a DIRECT LINE between the SS and 2nd base and I cannot see when the 2nd baseman received the ball. I initially called the runner "safe." The plate umpire calls "time." WITHOUT hesitation, I went in to my partner and asked: "Chris, did the 2nd baseman catch the ball before the runner got there?" He replied: "Yes." So, I turned around and said to the runner at 2nd: "Runner at 2nd, you're out." Now, HE didn't change my call, but provided me with information. Now, it's up to ME to either stick with my initial call OR CHANGE IT. I changed it. I have NO problem doing that and have done so a handful of times over the course of 30-plus years on the diamond.
Again, coach, NEVER "GUESS" AN OUT.

Umm... You do realize this thread is almost 5 years old, right?