Double Obstruction

[mcrowder]

12U

Batter hits to RF between RF and CF, ball is passing them. BR is obstructed by F3 standing directly on first base. I put the arm up, and immediately decide this hit was likely a triple had she not been obstructed. BR continues, and is again obstructed by both 2B and SS standing on and near second base. Ball has not yet been picked up by F9, but is about to be. On this obstruction alone, I again decide she'd get 3rd if there had been no obstruction.

Ball is retrieved, BR rounds 3rd base about 4 big steps, but decides to return to third base. If it matters, the throw would probably have beaten her by a couple of steps, had she decided to try to score (I know - this is not supposed to come into play in our decision regarding runner placement --- just trying to give you a picture of the play).

I leave BR at 3rd, no one complains, and life moves on.

I start thinking about it later. When making the decision on the 2nd obstruction (really 2nd and 3rd obstruction) at 2nd base, should I have taken into account that she would have been 2-3 steps farther along the basepaths had the FIRST obstruction not occurred? If she was 2-3 steps farther along at that point, I'm probably thinking about awarding home on that obstruction (again, the ball had not yet been picked up in RF).

Question is - SHOULD we consider the prior act when determining runner placement on a subsequent obstruction? Can't find support for it in the book, but logic tells me that if the purpose of the OBS penalty is to award what would have happened had the OBS not occurred, I can only think that this runner would have scored if no one would have OBS'd (and I likely would have made that judgement before seeing the throw come in from RF).

[JEL]

"I can only think that this runner would have scored if no one would have OBS'd (and I likely would have made that judgement before seeing the throw come in from RF"




I believe there lies the answer.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by mcrowder
I can only think that this runner would have scored if no one would have OBS'd (and I likely would have made that judgement before seeing the throw come in from RF).

Question: are you saying your first judgment (that this was a triple) was wrong, or are you saying that the defense was slow enough in retrieving the ball that it NOW looks like it would have been a home run?

Even without the second OBS, it would appear that as the runner passed 2nd, you were revising your judgment on where she would have ultimately ended up.

Personally, I would have revised the judgment at the time of the 2nd OBS and awarded her home. I have no idea if that notion is supported by clinicians and/or NUS.

But this play illustrates my discomfort with the "judge now and don't revise" teaching about OBS.

[mcrowder]

I was trying to only give the information that I knew about at the time, so as to not skew the answers...

But, after reviewing with my partner, my judgement of a triple on the 1st OBS was probably the right call AT THE TIME, as RF turned out to have taken a really bad angle, letting it get by. I didn't see this - as it occurred right about the time I was turning to watch the play at 2nd. I had the ball in my peripheral view, but didn't notice the bad angle by the fielder.

My problem with awarding home, BY THE BOOK, is that on the 1st OBS alone, 3rd base was probably the right call, and by the 2nd OBS alone (the position of the ball at that time, and ignoring the initial OBS), 3rd was probably STILL the right call, but in combining the two, it's logical to assume that she would have scored.

By the way, I'm right there with you on the discomfort with the "judge now and don't revise" theory. I can see the reasoning behind it, but don't feel that it should apply in ALL cases --- but that's my opinion, and I call it by what we're told.

[Andy]

As you described the play, I would probabaly award home.

My feeling on obtruction is that the defense has violated. If I have any doubt about placing runners, I'm awarding the advance or extra base.

My response to any defensive coach that complains is to not obstruct in the first place.

[Steve M]

I'm agreeing with those who would have awarded Home - especially with the obstructed runner making 3B & rounding it.

I'm judging that the first obstruction added 2 strides to where she ended up. Then I'm adding 2 strides again on the 2nd obstruction. Based on what you described - likely out a home by a couple (that's 2) strides - I'm awarding Home.

[mcrowder]

I see your logic guys...

But by what rule are you justifying the award of home. By rule, we are not supposed to wait for the play to unfold and THEN decide on bases. And I'm having trouble finding justification for taking the initial OBS into account when coming up with the award for the OBS at 2nd.

[debeau]

See the play dont assume .
In my opinion you had the obstruction but to already decide its a 3 bagger .
What happens if the runner is tagged 1/2 way between 2nd and 3rd ? Would you give the out .
I would .
She cannot be put out between the bases she was obstructed
so safe between 1st and 2nd .
If in the umpires judgement she could have attained the next base then safe (this would have to be a close play )
Now the next obstruction puts the runner safe between 2nd and third.
Would she have made home if she was not obstructed .
Probably not but as she didnt try you dont have to worry about that .
She put herself in jeopardy by venturing past 3rd and I would have given her out .
However your last staement is the important one .
In you judgement if you think she would have scored then thats your answer . Safe at home . Big Call

[Dakota]

We're going to get all balled up with various scenarios here unless we accept mcrowder's judgment at the time.

Assume:
1st OBS: Judgment: Runner would have made 3rd without the OBS

2nd/3rd OBS: Judgment: Runner would make 3rd based on current position of runner and ball.

The question was, can the delay from the 1st OBS be added at this point in making the judgment. If so, then the judgment would be home.

OK, accepting these judgments as correct, ...

Originally posted by debeau
In my opinion you had the obstruction but to already decide its a 3 bagger .
What happens if the runner is tagged 1/2 way between 2nd and 3rd ? Would you give the out .
I would .

Not true. Judgment on original OBS protects the runner to 3rd.

Originally posted by debeau
Would she have made home if she was not obstructed .
Probably not but as she didnt try you dont have to worry about that .

Not true (ASA). You award the runner the base you judge she would have made, whether she makes it or not. If the runner gives up for reasons unrelated to the OBS, then fine. But if the OBS caused the runner to retreat, then you can properly award her the more advanced base.

[mcrowder]

debeau, you're way off here.

It's not an opinion, it's the RULE that an umpire must decide at the time of the obstruction where he's protecting her to.

And your assertion that if you thought the runner would have achieved 3rd base without the obstruction, but upon seeing the runner tagged out between 2nd and 3rd you'd call her out is awful - what's the point of calling obstruction then? If she was out between 2nd and 3rd it would have been BECAUSE OF the obstruction that she was not already at 3rd when the ball made it in.

I'm still interested on hearing more opinions on whether we can (or should) take the 1st OBS into account into our reasoning at the time where we decide what the 2nd/3rd OBS protection should be. I admit I'm conflicted.

[Dukat]

Originally posted by mcrowder
I'm still interested on hearing more opinions on whether we can (or should) take the 1st OBS into account into our reasoning at the time where we decide what the 2nd/3rd OBS protection should be. I admit I'm conflicted.

I think you must! As a rule it says your judgement "had there been no obstruction". So with that said, once the second and third obstructions happened then you can by rule "judge" what would have happened had obstruction not occured at all the 1st, 2nd or 3rd times.

Are you talking about awarding home after the runner returned to 3rd? NFHS used to allow awarding an extra base on OBS but they took that out of the rule book several years ago. As long as I remember ASA has allowed awarding a base only if the runner make the base and is put out. Can you give me a rule # that states you may award an extra base?

[rhsc]

Originally posted by mcrowder


I'm still interested on hearing more opinions on whether we can (or should) take the 1st OBS into account into our reasoning at the time where we decide what the 2nd/3rd OBS protection should be. I admit I'm conflicted.

I think I would have awarded home. I cant cite a rule for double OBS, but I gotta think the time she lost by both OBS, she wouldve made home. I know mcrowder would have.

[wadeintothem]

protected to 3B on OBS is not something to spend time thinking about.. its fine. Ya did fine. Thats a triple.. people kill for those in some games.

[debeau]

ISF
With obstruction you are protected between the bases you were obstructed firstly .
So obstruction at 1st you are protected only between 1st and 2nd .
Any protection after that is if in the judgement of the umpire they would have made that base if they were not obstructed .ie if there is a close play at third . If thrown out 1/2 way between 2nd and 3rd there was no way the runner would have made 3rd so they put themselves in jeopardy . The runner is out .

The second point is rounding third
The runner was obstructed between 2nd and 3rd so is protected. As she went past 2 to 3 steps only we dont know if she would have made home .She would have had to go there for us to make that decision .
She turned back and was tagged. Runner out .
We have had obstruction since 2002 with these interpretations with no problems .
Incidentally
This doesnt mmake mt interpretation correct but adds weight to it .
We are having our finals of our National League this weekend .
I brought this scenario up and all The umpires agreed with me .
12 umpires
8 ISF and 4 grade 6 ( 1 level below ISF0)
1 attended last Olympics and one last years ISC