Double Obstruction

[tcannizzo]

Originally posted by mcrowder
PS to Mr. Cannizzo - it was when you said, "Clearly, (at least to me), the runner must make the attempt and be put out in order to be awarded a base," that I formed the opinion that you thought the runner must make the attempt and be put out in order to be awarded a base. If I misunderstood you while copying and pasting your words here, please forgive me.

No problem. I can understand what you write. Perhaps it is clearer now that I was simply referring to the rule book, and one of its warts.

PS to Tom:
Call me a dog-meat-bum if you like, I have been called worse. But the detectable sense of humor is appreciated.

Play ball!

[Dakota]

Originally posted by tcannizzo
Again, I have misled you terribly. I am not an attorney. I am a salesman and a former coach.

I'm not sure I'd brag about that if I were you. You're going in the wrong direction. (See previous tone-deaf statement).

Yes sir you are correct, I agree with your post to Tony. The runner should be put on third base. I think I stated this in my post before so I'm not as far off as you seem to think. But would you award home even if you though she would only have gotten third? The point I was making is you don't get an bonus base because you were OBSed. Award only the base you judge they would have gotten had not been OBS. One question, had this happend in a game you were umpiring, what action would you take toward the 1st baseman?

[debeau]

mccrowder
A ball is hit to the outfield which in your opinion is a three bagger and the BR is obstructed going around 1st .
Apparently you also assess the speed and build of the BR .
A 3 bagger for some is not so for others .
That is why in NZ we let the play unfold then award the bases not decide upon the hit .
How do make a judgement on something that hasnt happened or may not happen .
To be exreme as you have done .
The runner tears a hamstring running after the obstruction and not related , then is tagged out .
In your thinking you give her/him 3rd .

Different governing bodies / different countries / different interpretations .

[nzumpire]

It is such a shame that whilst this forum should be of great benefit to all softball participants a precious few seem to take it as a personal insult when their view is not immediately accepted as 'gospel' by all.

I quote from someone much older than all here:

" Rules are written for the strict obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"

Good Luck to you all and mercy on your players.. .. ..


[Edited by nzumpire on Apr 6th, 2005 at 06:14 AM]

[Dakota]

Originally posted by debeau
How do make a judgement on something that hasnt happened or may not happen.

You summarize nicely my issue with the ASA NUS interpretation / instruction on OBS. This was the crux of the original dilemma posted on this thread.

Given the ASA interpretation, and given a second (or third) OBS on the same runner, is the umpire to "add the steps" from the first OBS when making the judgment on the second?

Also, the thread has been partially diverted into several side issues, including the proper understanding of the "cannot be put out between the bases" rule in relation to the entire OBS rule, the assertion that bases may not be awarded unless the runner actually makes a try for the base, and the assertion that bases may not be awarded unless the obstructed runner is put out.

Back to the ASA interp, it has its problems that a more "keep the final judgment open" interpretation could avoid. But, I call 'em like the organization wants, as best I can.

Nzumpire, very nicely said. The key word here is judgment. You have the rule that says in you judgment. My judgment may be different from yours, but I think in a game all of us will do what we think is fair within the frame work of the rules and using our judgment. I think the worst officials I have seen are the ones that know the rules but don’t know the intent of the rule. And as Dakota said it is a shame that we can’t have an open discussion without getting personal just because someone may disagree or have a different view point. I come to these boards to discuss and learn and grow as an umpire. In officiating when you think you know it all it is time to quit, because you will never improve, and we all have room to improve. As the saying goes. “When your green you grow, when your ripe you rot.”

[mcrowder]

We did kind of drive through the ditch on this one. Thanks, Dakota, for trying to put us back on the road.

I think in the future, I will "add the steps" from the 1st OBS when determining where, in my JUDGEMENT , the runner would have gotten to in the 2nd/3rd OBS.

Here's the kicker. This sitch happened again this week on Tuesday. Nearly identical (the OBS at 1st was more dramatic, and there was no SS in the way this time). On this one, though, runner stopped at 2nd. I gave her 3rd, but at least in my mind I tried to envision what would have happened during the 2nd OBS, had the 1st OBS occurred. In this case, I couldn't envision home, even with both OBS's removed.

(PS - I agree with Dakota's opinion that there are problems with the current ASA interp telling us to decide at the time of OBS and not include subsequent actions ... but I do understand their reasoning, and call it the way we're told)