What is the correct ruling?

[wadeintothem]

At my clinic tonight with many Fed/ASA UIC's, there was a resounding - "it's not necessarily a blocked ball" .. but it wasnt gotten into too much.

*sigh*

~Confused in the Peoples Republic of Kalleeeeforia~

[greymule]

Unless it has changed for 2005, I was under the impression that in ASA, the runner being played on is out, not the runner closest to home as in NCAA.

Am I mistaken?

My 2005 book says the runner being played on is out, not the runner closest to home.

However, we don't know how literally 8-5-G-3 is supposed to be taken. It begins, "If the ball becomes blocked due to offensive equipment not in the game. . . ." Does ASA intend to differentiate between a blocked ball that hits offensive equipment and a blocked ball that is "touched, stopped, or handled by a person not engaged in the game"? And "touched, stopped, or handled" are words that might imply intent or deliberate action. Notice that the definition doesn't include "or hits." And is the ODB engaged in the game or not?

If they do not intend to differentiate, then why add "due to offensive equipment not in the game," when simply "if the ball becomes blocked" would do?

If the ODB is not simply hit with the ball but in fact deliberately interferes with it, do we then call out the runner closest to home? That's what we would call if a retired runner interfered. But that's interference, not a blocked ball.

At this point, I cannot believe that a throw that hits the ODB is automatically a blocked ball.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by BHBlue

Unless it has changed for 2005, I was under the impression that in ASA, the runner being played on is out, not the runner closest to home as in NCAA.

Am I mistaken?

I believe you are. ASA made this move a few years ago. The person which interferes is ruled out, not the runner. If the person whom interferes with the play is not an "active" participant (i.e. a runner/batter/BR which has already been retired), they cannot be ruled out.

Therefore, the runner closest to the plate is ruled out.

ASA Rule 7.1.E addresses which runner is ruled out when the ODB interferes with a play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by wadeintothem
At my clinic tonight with many Fed/ASA UIC's, there was a resounding - "it's not necessarily a blocked ball" .. but it wasnt gotten into too much.

*sigh*

~Confused in the Peoples Republic of Kalleeeeforia~

IOW, no one had an alternative which they could substantiate with a rule.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
Unless it has changed for 2005, I was under the impression that in ASA, the runner being played on is out, not the runner closest to home as in NCAA.

Am I mistaken?

My 2005 book says the runner being played on is out, not the runner closest to home.

Not in the case of the ODB.

However, we don't know how literally 8-5-G-3 is supposed to be taken. It begins, "If the ball becomes blocked due to offensive equipment not in the game. . . ." Does ASA intend to differentiate between a blocked ball that hits offensive equipment and a blocked ball that is "touched, stopped, or handled by a person not engaged in the game"? And "touched, stopped, or handled" are words that might imply intent or deliberate action. Notice that the definition doesn't include "or hits." And is the ODB engaged in the game or not?

If they do not intend to differentiate, then why add "due to offensive equipment not in the game," when simply "if the ball becomes blocked" would do?

If the ODB is not simply hit with the ball but in fact deliberately interferes with it, do we then call out the runner closest to home? That's what we would call if a retired runner interfered. But that's interference, not a blocked ball.

At this point, I cannot believe that a throw that hits the ODB is automatically a blocked ball.

Actually, I wouldn't totally disagree with your statement, but that isn't the rule.

Read definition of a Blocked Ball, then Interference and then rule 7.1.E.

There is absolutely no mention of intent in any of the three sections noted above, therefore, assumptions aside, a ball hitting the ODB is a blocked ball and POSSIBLY interference.

If an umpire isn't willing to judge when it is or is not interference, how could you expect THEM to be able to determine if there was intent or not on behalf of the ODB?

[greymule]

I'm aware that there's no mention of intent. I was just wondering whether we could infer intent from the way they worded the rule. Why not say simply "contacts a player not engaged in the game"?

So we are to treat a throw that hits the ODB as blocked in all cases, the same as if it hit offensive equipment lying in front of the dugout. It is a dead ball immediately. If it prevents an out (not likely, but possible), we now treat it as interference and call the runner closest to home out. If it does not prevent an out, we still send runners back to their last bases touched—even a runner two steps from home—the same as we would if the ball hit a bunch of bats lined up on the fence outside the dugout.

[wadeintothem]

I think that adding any discussion of INT muddies the water of this discussion. 7.1.E. is INT, not a blocked ball, and there is no argument in that regard IMO and its clear. The definition of INT is equally clear with the words "Offensive.. team member".

Blocked ball - I think it centers on whether an ODB is "engaged in the game."

Either they are "engaged" or they arent. If they are considered engaged in the game, blocked ball can NEVER apply. If they are not, it ALWAYS applies... right?

I've probably thought too much into this... but you must admit Mike it's not 100% clear... and as I think about it I, I go back and forth in my mind as to the status of an ODB - engaged or not.
Fed uses "non participating team personnel" - for a dead ball.

Your probably correct in your interpretation... an ODB may be allowed on the field but they arent really "engaged" or "participating" until they are at bat... what are they allowed to do? Nothing.. I've even had coaches whine they are "clocking" their pitcher.

That said... base coaches are exempted in ASA (allowed on the field), as are authorized (allowed on field somewhere) media personnel... the ball remains live..

ugh.

Thats about how I start confusing this in my mind -----

[Edited by wadeintothem on Feb 22nd, 2005 at 02:19 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by wadeintothem

Your probably correct in your interpretation... an ODB may be allowed on the field but they arent really "engaged" or "participating" until they are at bat... what are they allowed to do? Nothing.. I've even had coaches whine they are "clocking" their pitcher.

Think of them in terms of a bat. A bat used by the BR is a piece of equipment used in the game. A bat used by the ODB to warm-up is not.

Under NORMAL circumstances, a bat used by the BR does not interfere with the game or cause a blocked ball. A bat used by the ODB is not part of the game and can cause interference and the ball is always considered blocked, by rule, if that bat is touched by a live ball.

The ODB is permitted, by rule, to leave the OD circle only to avoid interfering with a play, or to direct a runner approaching the plate. However, they are still required to avoid interfering with the play.

That said... base coaches are exempted in ASA (allowed on the field), as are authorized (allowed on field somewhere) media personnel... the ball remains live..

Partially true. The coach is exempt only when accidentally hit by a thrown ball, a foul batted ball or a batted ball over foul territory which no fielder had the opportunity to catch.

The coach is still required to vacate their "haven" to avoid interfering with a defender making a play. They are not allowed to leave the box between pitches to talk to the batter.

Media is allowed on the field as long as they are in complete control of all their equipment and there is no designated media area. Most of the time, they are the same as we are, just part of the field, dirt!

[Dakota]

Originally posted by wadeintothem
Blocked ball - I think it centers on whether an ODB is "engaged in the game."

Either they are "engaged" or they arent. If they are considered engaged in the game, blocked ball can NEVER apply. If they are not, it ALWAYS applies... right?

... an ODB may be allowed on the field but they arent really "engaged" or "participating" until they are at bat... what are they allowed to do? Nothing

Last point first - that is not correct; An ODB is allowed to coach runners home from third (7-1-D-2).

If the ODB is coaching runners home from third, the ODB is engaged in the game.

Otherwise, I agree with your points I have quoted, even though you use THEY!

[wadeintothem]

Last point first - that is not correct; An ODB is allowed to coach runners home from third (7-1-D-2).

If the ODB is coaching runners home from third, the ODB is engaged in the game.

Otherwise, I agree with your points I have quoted, even though you use THEY!

-------------------------------

Yep, they are allowed to do that ...

So if a thrown ball hits an ODB inadvertantly while they are engaged in doing 71d2....

Cool, more mud for the water...

[BHBlue]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA Rule 7.1.E addresses which runner is ruled out when the ODB interferes with a play.


Sorry, Mike, but my post had to do with what your first post called a blocked ball, not what you now calling INT. It is encouraging to see that you, like many of us, are not above a little spin to avoid the perception of fallibility.

[IRISHMAFIA]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BHBlue

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA Rule 7.1.E addresses which runner is ruled out when the ODB interferes with a play.

Sorry, Mike, but my post had to do with what your first post called a blocked ball, not what you now calling INT. It is encouraging to see that you, like many of us, are not above a little spin to avoid the perception of fallibility.

Below is the only post in this thread which I can find from you. So as for the post above, you are going to have to tell me about what the hell you are talking.

You specifically mentioned ruling a player out and that occurs due to interference, not a blocked ball.


Unless it has changed for 2005, I was under the impression that in ASA, the runner being played on is out, not the runner closest to home as in NCAA.

Am I mistaken?
__________________
Wyman

Who is doing the spinning here?

[BHBlue]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Who is doing the spinning here?



No spinning, just wrong. The out which I was referring to is for offensive equipment, and not ODB. Serves me right for not having the book in front of me when I post.

My apologies.