Lookback rule

[KJ'sDAD]

I raised my hand and suggested to her that R3 could *still* taunt the defense, without penalty, even with the ball in the circle, as long as the BR had not yet reached 1st. She disagreed. She bet me a beer. She lost that bet. In ASA, the provisions of the Lookback Rule do not BEGIN until the batter-runner has reached 1st. So, R3 can do just about anything she wants while the BR is still trotting down to 1st, regardless of whether the pitcher has the ball in the circle.

Dave,
This is accurate this season, but I think we're about to see a change next year. LBR will go into effect as soon as the pitcher has control of the ball within the circle. (ASA)

Mike has a better handle on this and hopefully will elaborate.

Kevin

[Edited by KJ'sDAD on Feb 1st, 2005 at 08:27 AM]

[Dakota]

First, the "complicated and silly" parts of the LBR are the 42 different variations of what can happen on a BR who overruns 1B, not about the rule in general.

Second, pardon me while I weep and moan for those poor pitchers who are being taunted by a mean runner on 3B while the BR is advancing to 1B. We need to put a stop to this or some kid might cry.

[KJ'sDAD]

http://www.officialforum.com/thread/16353

Link to an earlier thread regarding the possible re-wording of the LBR.

Did not take effect in 2005, but may in 2006.

Originally posted by Dakota
First, the "complicated and silly" parts of the LBR are the 42 different variations of what can happen on a BR who overruns 1B, not about the rule in general.

Second, pardon me while I weep and moan for those poor pitchers who are being taunted by a mean runner on 3B while the BR is advancing to 1B. We need to put a stop to this or some kid might cry.

Tom,

I could care less if the pitcher is taunted or not. the point is that the LBR will go into effect for everyone but the BR as soon as the pitcher has control of the ball within the circle. It goes into effect for the BR when she reaches 1st base.

Another earlier thread discussed the situation when the ball is hit back to the pitcher within the circle and when does the LBR go into effect.

I would think that as soon as the pitcher has the ball under control within the circle, it's on. Now with a runner on third, so long as she doesn't make a play on the BR, the R1 must immediately decide whether to advance or retreat.

In 2005 she doesn't have to decide until the BR reaches 1st base.

Again, I don't care one way or the other, but will coach the team based on whatever rule governs the game.

Kevin

[Edited by KJ'sDAD on Feb 2nd, 2005 at 10:10 AM]

[mcrowder]

I believe LBR was written (and amended, and amended, ...) with the intent of stopping the wasting of time. All of those plays several years ago where the pitcher had the ball, and the baserunner would just stand there several feet off the bag. It wasn't a matter of sportsmanship or of making a pitcher cry. It was simply a matter of wasting time.

I've seen (numerous times), under the current rule, where the batter simply stops 1 step before 1st base, allowing the runner to try to draw a throw when the pitcher has no intention of throwing. WASTE OF TIME. This new amendment puts an end to that.

Here's what I don't get. I do baseball too, and even without LBR or circle rules, the boys never mess with this nonsense. Wonder why the girls had to have it outlawed to get it to stop.

[KJ'sDAD]

Originally posted by mcrowder

I've seen (numerous times), under the current rule, where the batter simply stops 1 step before 1st base, allowing the runner to try to draw a throw when the pitcher has no intention of throwing. WASTE OF TIME. This new amendment puts an end to that.

I've never seen it, but that is certainly a compelling argument for the ammendment.

I'm sold.

Kevin

[Steve M]

Originally posted by mcrowder

Here's what I don't get. I do baseball too, and even without LBR or circle rules, the boys never mess with this nonsense. Wonder why the girls had to have it outlawed to get it to stop.

They've got their own brand of wasting time in BB - how much time is wasted by having the pitcher throw to F3 on a pick-off attempt? It's really very similar.

[Dakota]

I raised my hand and suggested to her that R3 could *still* taunt the defense, ....

Here is what I was being sarcastic about. Stopping taunting is not and was not the intent of the LBR.

WRT stopping one step short of 1st, I have not seen this, and I don't expect I will see it more than once per team.

Me: "TIME."

O Coach: "Blue, you can't call time during playing action."
Me: "Yes I can. Rule 10-8-A. Now, let's stop wasting time with this nonsense."

I have no big issue with changing the rule BACK to what it was in 2003, but preventing taunting is a PC reason. That is what I was ridiculing.

[KJ'sDAD]

Tom,

I missed your point and I agree 100%. It would be asinine to water down the sport in the name of political correctness.

Reminds me of an editorial I once read regarding face masks on batting helmets.

Kevin

[Dakota]

Originally posted by KJ'sDAD
Tom,

I missed your point and I agree 100%. It would be asinine to water down the sport in the name of political correctness.

Reminds me of an editorial I once read regarding face masks on batting helmets.

Kevin

But, you realize don't you, you've given me another excuse the plug the site: Softball Umpires.

BTW, based on the discussion on eteamz, the rules committee of the MURSA has met, and have approved several new rules. Check the handouts section.

[WestMichBlue]

MC: "Here's what I don't get. I do baseball too, and even without LBR or circle rules, the boys never mess with this nonsense. Wonder why the girls had to have it outlawed to get it to stop."

Do the boys have to go back to the base?


WMB

[mcrowder]

At most levels, no, they don't. I guess this could be part of the reason it evolved this way (that, and possibly the bigger diamond in most ages). Boys are used to seeing that runner 2 whole frightenting steps off the base, and ignore him. Girls aren't, so needed a rule to force the player back or the pitcher would feel compelled to threaten the runner with that ever-fearsome fake-throw-move to get her to go back.

I still think it's sad we needed a rule.

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by mcrowder
At most levels, no, they don't. I guess this could be part of the reason it evolved this way (that, and possibly the bigger diamond in most ages). Boys are used to seeing that runner 2 whole frightenting steps off the base, and ignore him. Girls aren't, so needed a rule to force the player back or the pitcher would feel compelled to threaten the runner with that ever-fearsome fake-throw-move to get her to go back.

I still think it's sad we needed a rule.

The problem with this comparison is that you are really comparing apples and oranges. If by the "boys" you mean baseball, then it is hard to compare that to the game of softball. So why even try? Two totally different games. If by the "boys" you mean men's Fastpitch, then guess what, you still have a lookback rule.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Here's what I don't get. I do baseball too, and even without LBR or circle rules, the boys never mess with this nonsense. Wonder why the girls had to have it outlawed to get it to stop.

While the specific rules bodies differ (LL, Pony, etc.) generally baseball base lines go from 60 to 90 feet above 12U. Softball base lines stay at 60 feet. At 60 feet, a pitcher cannot afford to ignore a runner taking a lead. Seems simple to me.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Here's what I don't get. I do baseball too, and even without LBR or circle rules, the boys never mess with this nonsense. Wonder why the girls had to have it outlawed to get it to stop.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"While the specific rules bodies differ (LL, Pony, etc.) generally baseball base lines go from 60 to 90 feet above 12U. Softball base lines stay at 60 feet. At 60 feet, a pitcher cannot afford to ignore a runner taking a lead. Seems simple to me."
__________________
Tom


You're missing the point, Tom. The BB runner does not have to return to the base after the pitch (as long as the ball is still live). The runner can, and will be off the base at TOP.

The SB runner has to be on the base before the next pitch. We will not allow the pitcher to start the pitching motion until the runner is on the base. Thus SB has the unique LBR, which forces the runners back to the base by rule only. No effort by defensive players is required.

WMB

[Dakota]

I know all that... let me try again to say what I was trying to say, plus add to it...

Point 1: Because of the 60 foot base lines (IMO) softball requires the player to start on the base. That is not true in baseball.

Point 2: Since there is no forcing back to the base in baseball for any reason, the comparison is apples and oranges.

Point 3: Since the base lines in softball are so short, the pitcher must take any runner seriously who is taking a lead between pitches, even if that runner is required by rule to return to the base before the pitch. The pitcher is not worried about a steal during the pitch (baseball style), but about a so-called delayed steal.

Point 4: This situation is a direct result of fast players and short base lines.

So, to answer the question, "why does fastpitch need a look-back rule and baseball does not?"

Answer: shorter base lines.

JMO.