Intelligence and the ASA rule book

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
The rule book is NOT a "How to" book you can pick up at Home Depot and go out and work a softball game. I suggest your friend attend a few clinics and then reread Rule 4, in whole. Then POE 15 and then Rule 4 again. See if he gets it then.

The ASA rule book has its share of funny sentence structures, misplaced sub-rules, errors in grammar, and other assorted problems. And, I've been known to poke fun at them from time-to-time, and even once made a serious suggestion that the ASA rule book could benefit from some professional editing.

I can imagine a senior editor at Simon & Schuster going into red-faced rant mode if a reference book with so many errors made it out with Simon & Schuster's name on the title page.

None of which is any criticism of ASA as a softball organization. It is criticism of ASA as a book publisher.

None of which has anything whatsoever to do with the DP/FLEX rule, either. The rule is reasonably well-written. The issue with the rule is the numerous scenarios that came come up in a real game where the rule may need to be applied.

So, someone who

has read ASA's DEFO rule over and over, ... {and} still does not understand it.

has an issue with their own ability to deal with multi-variable problems rather than an issue with how the rule is written. I hope your friend is in some relatively simple job, such as teaching young minds the English language.

[MA Softball Ump]

Originally posted by bkbjones
Tell him to go to Emily's website and download the slide show...then come back if he has any more questions.

What is the link or URL to "Emily's website", please?

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by MA Softball Ump

What is the link or URL to "Emily's website", please?

http://www.cactusumpires.com/

Welcome to the board.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by greymule
I know a guy who scored 800 on the SAT math (40 years ago, when it was much harder), fell just short of 800 on the English SAT and the English achievement, and was graduated from a US News & World Report "Top 25" college.

He has a remarkable vocabulary and facility with words. University professors come to him for advice regarding articles they are submitting to peer-reviewed journals.

He was also a pretty good ballplayer.

Remarkably, however, though he has read ASA's DEFO rule over and over, he claims that he still does not understand it.

There is some truth in this.

Let's face it, way too much time is spent on understanding the FLEX/DP rule. It has always been difficult to digest.

It's much more complex than any rule having to do with a Designated Hitter or an Extra Player. Pages and pages could be written on this rule alone. All the possibilities ... the combinations and permutations, boggle the mind. Some say that this is the rules STRENGTH. I disagree - I think it's the rule's weakness. Any rule that requires this much attention is flawed, in my opinion.

We have umpires in the softball community who are "experts" on this rule. Whenever anybody asks any difficult questions, we refer them to the experts. There are DP/FLEX experts? Where are all the obstruction experts? Where are the illegal pitch experts? There are none - because most everybody can speak intelligently on those topics. They're comfortable talking about obstruction and illegal pitches. Ask a tough question about DP/FLEX and what do you get? Links!

Sure, most of us all understand the rule quite well ... but that's what we do! We're umpires! And, even with that, we still spend an inordinate amount of time with it. We find loopholes. We ask for clarifications. We seek interpretations. We analyze various substitution scenarios. Sometimes we agree. Sometimes we disagree. And then we start all over again.

It begs the question: Should it really be this complicated?

And, let's face it - it IS complicated!

It's not about whether YOU understand it. It's about why so many OTHERS don't.

Is EVERYBODY stupid -or- perhaps, is the rule a little more complicated than it needs to be?

The Extra Hitter Rule, which is popular in so many other system of rules, would accomplish many of the same objectives that are achieved with the DP/FLEX. The only main difference is that there would acutally be TEN hitters. Any 9 can take the field at any time.

Simple. Straight forward. Easy to understand. No complicated substitution scenarios. No going from 9 to 10, then 10 to 9, then back to 10.

The DP/FLEX can be a powerful tool *if* you understand all the in's and out's. The problem is, how many coaches know these in's and out's? And, should a rule be so complicated that there are a "few" that can gain an advantage over the "many" who simply don't get it? And is that because the "many" are all stupid people?

I don't mean to be bashing the DP/FLEX rule. I think I understand it well enough. I don't have a problem with it. But, I'm not blinded by the fact that so many people simply DON'T get it. It's hard to ignore that. The question that should be asked is: Why?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Jan 28th, 2005 at 10:19 AM]

[Chess Ref]

You seem to be wanting to ruin a good discussion by showing up with a clear, thought out and logical post. Cut it out. LOL Receiving a shift in perspective is one of funnest things I have happen to me .

[Dakota]

Originally posted by David Emerling
...so many people simply DON'T get it. ... Why?

Hmmm... asked and answered

The issue with the rule is the numerous scenarios that came come up in a real game where the rule may need to be applied.

So, someone who ... still does not understand it ... has an issue with their own ability to deal with multi-variable problems rather than an issue with how the rule is written.

Umpiring IS dealing with multi-variable problems. There is no doubt some umpires muddle through with only a fair knowledge of the basic rules and just ignore everything else. I know an umpire who refuses to call the IFR because he can't keep it straight. Wonderful.

I also challenge your assertion that

most everybody can speak intelligently on ... obstructions {and} illegal pitch

Wow! Are you new to these boards?

So you like the slowpitch EH (EP) rule. Fine. We could all just adopt the rec-ball "bat-the-roster-unlimited-defensive-substitution" rule, too. Real simple, then. No need for even a line up card except for BOO.

Why don't we just adopt the USFA's rule book and declare, along with them,

Any organization that changes these
rules is changing the foundation of the game.

Of course, after this bit of sanctimony they proceed to change them, but what the heck.

The real issue with DP/FLEX is people go all ga-ga and forget that these are merely positions, and unless you are dealing with the player playing DP replacing the player playing FLEX (or vice versa) NONE of the rules concerning batting order, substitutions, or re-entry have changed.

Remember that (which if you can't there must be a lot of the other rules you can't remember, either, like my friend and the IFR) and you have 90% of the DP/FLEX rule locked.

[Edited by Dakota on Jan 28th, 2005 at 12:01 PM]

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by Dakota
The real issue with DP/FLEX is people go all ga-ga and forget that these are merely positions, and unless you are dealing with the player playing DP replacing the player playing FLEX (or vice versa) NONE of the rules concerning batting order, substitutions, or re-entry have changed.

Remember that (which if you can't there must be a lot of the other rules you can't remember, either, like my friend and the IFR) and you have 90% of the DP/FLEX rule locked. [/B]

DP and FLEX "are merely positions?"

Oh - if only it were that simple!

Although true - I think that completely oversimplifies things and does not lend much to comprehensive understanding.

Here's how you know the DP/FLEX rule is extremely complicated: Try to explain it to somebody who has no knowledge of it. How quickly can they "get it?" How long does it take you to explain it? How many questions do they ask?

Or - do they just look at you like a dog that heard a strange sound?

I am an assistant coach for my daughter's 16U team. We play in a lot of ASA and AFA tournaments. For years, I have tried to explain the DP/DEFO (now DP/FLEX) rule to the head coach. In his mind, it's nothing but a Designated Hitter rule. To a large extent, that thinking will work. Unfortunately, there is much more to it. Whenever I suggest to him some kind of substitution option that involves a more advanced aspect of the DP/FLEX rule (highlighting it's incredible flexibility), he always looks at me and says, "Can we do that?"

For instance, there may come a time in the game where it will be helpful for the DP to actually play in the field. I've finally convinced the head coach that the DP can play the field at any time. So he does! But, every once in a while, he has the DP playing for the FLEX. Sometimes I don't notice that he has done that. He doesn't tell the umpires.

I have to inform him that he CAN'T do that without notifying the umpire. This is a substitution. Fortunately, our opponents almost never notice this - especially when the DP takes over at a low profile position, like the outfield.

Whenever I explain this to him, he says, "I thought you said that I could put the DP in the field at any time without substituting."

Yes - EXCEPT for the FLEX!

Then he rolls his eyes, and resigns himself to the fact that the rule is simply too complicated. The really sad part is this ... we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the OTHER aspects of the rule.

I've given up.

* * *

From the Dirty Little Secret Department:

One thing I've discovered about umpires over the years is that we have a tendency to subconsciously embrace highly complex rules. We fall in love with them. Deep down in places we won't openly admit to - we like these complicated rules. Complicated rules empower us. As long as such rules exist, it guarantees that WE will be smarter than everybody else. We'll be the experts! We'll know the rules better than the coaches, players, and fans.

This is why umpires just can't wait to point a finger in the sky and bellow out, "Infield fly, batter's out!" We eat that sh*t up! We love making those rare calls that nobody knows because, it shows how SMART we are. Most people cannot intelligently articulate the Infield Fly Rule ... so we like that rule, too!

Again, I'm not suggesting that these rules shouldn't exist. Certainly, we must have an Infield Fly Rule. I'm simply observing that some of these rules are a bit complex.

And, ultimately, the question is this: Which rules are NECESSARILY complex (like the Infield Fly Rule) and which ones are ARTIFICIALLY complex?

I suggest that organizations should root out those rules that are ARTIFICIALLY complex. Perhaps the DP/FLEX rule is one of those as evidenced by the fact that so few, for so long, have had difficulty fully grasping it.

Remember our discussion about what is legal or illegal (in ASA) regarding a batter-runner's ability to break for 2nd base after overrunning 1st?

WestMichBlue:
1. If she turns Right she must return to 1B
2. If she turns Left and starts towards 2B, she must continue to 2B.
3. If she turns Left and starts towards 1B, she must continue to 1B.
4. If she turns left - and stops - then she has option to go to 2B, or return to 1B

Seriously now, is that necessary? Is this a complexity born of NECESSITY or ARTIFICIALLY asserted by rulesmakers and interpreters?

... stepping down from soapbox.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Jan 28th, 2005 at 02:00 PM]

[Dakota]

Because you've given up probably says more about your head coach than the rule.

You ridicule the notion that they are only positions, and unless replacing EACH OTHER, not much else is different.

Riddle me this, bat man, can any player in the game play any position on defense any time the coach wishes?

Yup.

Is the DP a player in the game?

Yup.

Can the DP, therefore play any position on defense any time the coach wishes?

Yup.

The ONLY caveat is when the coach wants the DP to play for the FLEX. Which causes your head coach's eyes to roll. I can't help that.

[whiskers_ump]

Tom wrote: DP and FLEX "are merely positions?"

He also stated that this covers 90 % of the rule.

Totally agree, with both his last two posts.

[MA Softball Ump]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump

http://www.cactusumpires.com/

Welcome to the board.

Thanks, Glen! I went to that site and it is really impressive. But, after 1/2 hour, I could not find the video. Does anyone know where it is on that site?

[David Emerling]

I suspected my last post would get some dander up. It always does. So nothing is new under the sun.

My intent was to neither defend nor attack the DP/FLEX rule. Like I said, I don't have a problem with it. I'm simply recognizing that too many people DO. Again ... why?

If explaining to somebody that they are "merely positions" conquers 90% of the problem - then why does the confusion persist? Why isn't anybody taking the time to come to this understanding? Why can't they?

It's difficult for somebody who understands something well (like almost everybody in this forum) to relate to those who don't.

---

SIDENOTE: I'm an airline pilot. There was a famous airline accident in 1987 that occurred in southern California. A disgruntled ex-employee of PSA airlines (now defunct) boarded a flight and shot the supervisor who had fired him. He did this while the aircraft was airborne. Then this disgruntled ex-employee shot both the captain and co-pilot ... then shot himself. The cockpit voice recorder recorded the screams of the 44 passengers as the aircraft accelerated beyond its structural limits before ripping apart. Almost every airline pilot I know asked the following question: Why didn't somebody attempt to fly the aircraft? There was nothing wrong with the aircraft. We couldn't conceive how anybody could not come forward and, at least, attempt to fly the aircraft. And the reason we had trouble comprehending that is because WE'RE PROFESSIONAL AIRLINE PILOTS!

---

We're umpires. We make a point of understanding anything that is complicated. We'll find a way to come to this understand one way or the other. Consequently, we have a difficult time relating to, or understanding, why others can't come to the same level of understanding that we have.

Rules in sports are not supposed to be proprietary.

Understanding how the FLEX, who is occupying the #10 spot in the lineup, can bat in the spot occupied by the DP is *not* an option born out of the understanding that they are "merely positions." Can the second baseman (a mere position), who is batting 7th, bat for the 1st baseman (a mere position), when the 2nd baseman takes over as the 1st baseman? NO!!!! Yet the FLEX, who is 10th in the lineup (but doesn't bat), *can* occupy another spot in the lineup.

I think the way the FLEX is handled administratively, by mandating that she be placed in the 10th slot, contributes to much of the confusion. I think it would be clearer if the FLEX were placed (parenthetically) alongside the DP in the batting order.

Don't shoot the messenger, guys! I'm on your side!

I'm simply observing that the knowledge regarding this rule is slim and that it is wildly pervasive throughout the softball community. No matter what one may think of the rule, good or bad, of that there can be no dispute.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Jan 28th, 2005 at 02:29 PM]

[KJ'sDAD]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks, Glen! I went to that site and it is really impressive. But, after 1/2 hour, I could not find the video. Does anyone know where it is on that site?
[/B][/QUOTE]

MA Softball Ump,

I'm not Glen, but if you go to the downloads section, under ASA. Click on the Line Up Management System. It's not a video, but a Power Point presentation.

I live on the Northshore. You've probably called some of my daughters games. Are you calling games at Strike-One in Danvers?

Kevin

[Chess Ref]

WOW !!!!! i am going to be a 1st year umpire this year and I am just thrilled to use one of those ball/strike indicators. And hoping I don't screw that up.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by David Emerling
Understanding how the FLEX, who is occupying the #10 spot in the lineup, can bat in the spot occupied by the DP is *not* an option born out of the understanding that they are "merely positions." Can the second baseman (a mere position), who is batting 7th, bat for the 1st baseman (a mere position), when the 2nd baseman takes over as the 1st baseman? NO!!!! Yet the FLEX, who is 10th in the lineup (but doesn't bat), *can* occupy another spot in the lineup.

Hmmmm.... I think you illustrate my point.

Let's see... when the FLEX bats, she is taking the place of the DP, right?

Ga ga ga ga ... how can this beeeeee!!!

One of the caveats to the "just a position", right?

Your head coach rolls his eyes because there is this exception when DP plays defense for FLEX.

Your unnamed confused masses go ga ga when the FLEX bats for DP! How can this be? Oh, the confusion, the complexity, the chaos!



BTW, apparently unlike some umpires who self-describe themselves as reveling in complexity, I am pointing out how the complex reputation attached to DP/FLEX is for the most part unwarranted.

Resist the tendency to roll the eyes and go ga ga and just remember the routine rules about lineups, substitutions, batting order, and defensive position swaps.

Then, pay attention when DP goes in for FLEX on defense and FLEX bats for DP. You'll have it knocked.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by Chess Ref
WOW !!!!! i am going to be a 1st year umpire this year and I am just thrilled to use one of those ball/strike indicators. And hoping I don't screw that up.

Chess Ref,

You're a new umpire.

Go through Emily's Power Point presentation and see if you can work through the following scenario.

http://www.cactusumpires.com/pdf/lineup-asa-hs.ppt

---

SITUATION: A team starts with 10 players. Donna is the DP, batting 3rd, and Felicity is the FLEX, in the 10th spot. Felicity happens to be playing 2nd base.

As the game proceeds, Felicity is removed as Susan replaces her at 2nd base. That makes Susan the new FLEX. Pretty straight forward.

Eventually, Susan bats for Donna. The FLEX can bat for the DP. Still, straight forward.

When the 3rd spot in the lineup comes up again, the coach decides to re-enter Felicity to bat for Susan.

Question: Is this a legal re-entry for Felicity? If so, can Felicity ever resume her previous role as FLEX and return to the 10th spot?

---

Does it help you to know that DP and FLEX are "merely positions?"

Keep in mind, Emily's Power Point presentation says, "Once a player is listed in a slot 1-10, that is the only slot she can ever be in. That player LIVES in that slot. It is where she enters & leaves the game. It is the only slot a sub for a player can enter the game."

Does that aspect of Emily's explanation help you?

Is that really true -or- with regard to DP/FLEX, is that explanation extremely misleading?

Do you think if a coach sat in on that presentation that he might walk away with a serious misconception regarding the DP/FLEX rule?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN