F1 as fielder and the LBR

[Dakota]

Since the other thread has gone off is a couple of different directions, I was wondering if there was more to say about the statement in the ASA POE 33-E,

A pitcher fielding a ball in the circle is just another fielder and runners can leave their base.

since that notion is the point of hesitation (ironic, huh?) at changing the LBR again to remove the trigger on the BR reaching 1st.

I note that the POE does not say anything about batted ball or about how F1 came to be fielding the ball. So, I guess, the throw could come from anywhere.

Common sense would say that the routine throw back from F2 would not make F1 "just another fielder."

Common sense would also say that on a throw from anywhere else or on a batted ball F1 stops being "just another fielder" when she stops acting like one and resumes acting like a pitcher with control & not making a play.

I guess I am a bit mystified about how this becomes an issue that needs to be addressed. The judgment as to when F1 transitions from fielder to pitcher (for purposes of the LBR) does not seem that hard to me.

What am I missing?

[WestMichBlue]

Let’s just make a simple statement about when the LBR is in effect. Many people want to believe that the LBR is in effect when the runner is off the base and the pitcher holds the ball in the circle. Or when the B-R has passed 1B and the pitcher holds the ball in the circle.

That is not true. That simply establishes the conditions under which the LBR can be put into effect. The LBR comes into effect ONLY after a runner has stopped! Stopped at a base, or stopped between bases. Even though the pre-requisite conditions have been met, if the runner has not stopped there can be no LBR violation. They only way to get an out is to tag the runner while off the base.

OK, so what does that have to do with your question?

Tom: “I guess I am a bit mystified about how this becomes an issue that needs to be addressed. The judgment as to when F1 transitions from fielder to pitcher (for purposes of the LBR) does not seem that hard to me.”

I agree, it’s not hard. I believe the POE is simply telling us not to invoke the LBR when the pitcher is fielding a batted ball. At that instant F1 is just a fielder and a runner should be allowed to leave a base. It is no different than if the shortstop held the ball in the circle.

The problem is that one gets lost when trying to answer the “when is a pitcher a pitcher again” question. That is not the right question. The only valid issue is WHEN can you invoke the LBR? And that is after the following pre-requisites are met:

1. F1 (as show on the line-up card) has the ball.
2. F1 is in the circle
3. B-R has passed 1B

Then LBR can be invoked WHEN a runner stops. When the pitcher fields the ball and holds the ball – any runner going to a base can go there, but if they stop at the base they cannot leave. When the pitcher fields the ball and holds the ball – any runner going to a base can stop, but then must decided and go, or be called out.

It’s simple when we remember that the LBR can only be invoked when a runner stops. The other conditions are just pre-requisites to be able to invoke the LBR.

BTW – softball rules do not define the verb “field.” But Webster says it is to catch or pick-up a batted ball. So I agree with you Tom that a pitcher is still a pitcher when receiving a thrown ball from any defender. She is only a fielder when she fields a batted ball.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue

Then LBR can be invoked WHEN a runner stops. When the pitcher fields the ball and holds the ball – any runner going to a base can go there, but if they stop at the base they cannot leave. When the pitcher fields the ball and holds the ball – any runner going to a base can stop, but then must decided and go, or be called out.

And there is the issue. If the pitcher chooses to not make a play, why should the offense be deprived from advancing at will? Why should the fielder who happens to be the pitcher have such a powerful entitlement?

Too much of the LBR in any format is based on presumption. I say take the guessing out of it because, as has been stated here repeatedly by all parties, nothing is supposed to happen between plays. So what is the big deal, other than the inflated FP egos, if we just kill the ball between plays.

[chuck chopper]

Not sure if I understand all this, however I see this goofy picture/play of the BR after being walked STOPS 1/2 way up the line..Bingo" the LBR is on, now she goes right past first & on to 2nd which would be a violation since she can only go to the "next bag".

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by chuck chopper
Not sure if I understand all this, however I see this goofy picture/play of the BR after being walked STOPS 1/2 way up the line..Bingo" the LBR is on, now she goes right past first & on to 2nd which would be a violation since she can only go to the "next bag".

Yep, you're right about the understanding

The LBR, if still in place, does not take effect until the BR reaches 1B.

If you look at the rule, it only applies to RUNNERS, not BRs.

[WestMichBlue]

”why should the offense be deprived from advancing at will? “

They are not! They can advance all they want. They are deprived of stopping, dancing around, taunting the pitcher, playing games. The LBR is in effect as soon as they stop and they must move directly to a base.

If F1 fields a batted ball and chooses not to make any further play, then that’s the end of it and the LBR will eventually come into effect. That is the identical action to when a fielder chooses not to make any further play and throws the ball to the pitcher in the circle. That is the identical action to when the catcher chooses not to make any further play and throws the ball to the pitcher in the circle. At that time the defense has chosen to end the play and the LBR is now available to end the taunting and game playing of the runners.

It is such a simple concept and I fail to understand why so many have a problem with the LBR.

1. In FP the ball is always live
2. The defense determines when to end playing on runner
3. The LBR then forces the runners to a base so that the next play (a pitch) can begin.

In SP the umpire arbitrarily kills the ball and forces all runners to a base in preparation of the next play. In FP the ball stays live and it is the choice of the defense to end the play.

” has been stated here repeatedly by all parties, nothing is supposed to happen between plays. So what is the big deal, other than the inflated FP egos, if we just kill the ball between plays.”

It is not inflated egos, Mike. There is a basic conceptual difference between the FP and SP games that you don’t seem to be able to comprehend.

SP, as Tom noted previously, is a “start ‘n stop” game. Ball is live when pitched, and dead at the end of the pitch. If the ball is hit, then the deadball point is extended to when the ball is secure in the infield and no player is attempting a play anymore. Then you reset – send runners to a base, get the batter ready, and start the next play with a pitch. Start, stop. Start, stop, Start, stop until you finally reach the end of the game. Note also that runs are scored by hitting the ball. Pitch, hit, get on base – kill play. Pitch, hit the ball, score – kill play.

In FP the ball is always in play (other than obvious exceptions such as foul ball, times out, etc.) You don’t call time when a runner is off the base. Because of that, FP added the LBR to force runners back to a base and quit taunting the defense. Note also that runs are ‘manufactured’ in FP. Many runs are scored without the benefit of a hit. As I said before, start killing the ball all the time, and you kill the game.

In normal SP the ball can become dead when runners are off the base. When you added stealing to SP you had to keep the ball live at the end of a pitch. Now you kill it when the pitcher has it, AND the runner is stopped. Wow – there is that word “stop!” Lifted from the FP LBR? Instead of a circle, you have “vicinity.” Lifted from the FP LBR? But if a “play” is being made on a runner, you don’t kill the ball. Lifted from the FP LBR?

So why didn’t you just bring the LBR over to SP? BECAUSE SP is based on killing the play. So you have your version of the LBR modified to fit the SP game. When the runner is off the base after a pitch, and the pitcher has the ball in the vicinity of the plate, and the runner has stopped – kill the play and send the runner back to the base.

Under the LBR in FP we don’t kill the play, we allow the runners to return. If they don’t, we call them out.

Different games, different philosophies. Legitimately - different rules.

SP has created a potential future morass of problems by adding stealing to its rules. Their initial rules were adopted from the FP LBR and modified to fit the SP concept. As runners and defenders get to know the new game they will stretch the rules, and require new interpretations, and eventually tweaking of the rules to stay ahead of the players.

FP has already been down this road; we have tweaked and modified our LBR. It is fine – let’s leave it alone while SP figures out it’s problems.

WMB

[WestMichBlue]

Chuck: ”I see this goofy picture/play of the BR after being walked STOPS 1/2 way up the line..Bingo" the LBR is on”

Under current rule, the LBR cannot be invoked until after the B-R has reached 1B – and then it is invoked independently to any runner WHEN they individually stop.

The proposed change would eliminate the pre-requisite of the B-R reaching 1B. The LBR would be invoked immediately and independently on any runner when that runner stopped. Until the B-R reaches 1B she is not a runner, thus the LBR would not apply to her if she stopped short of 1B.

Apparently, some people have complained to ASA that runners are taking playing games prior to the B-R reaching 1B. They are so mad that they want ASA to change the rules and get the runner that is dancing off 3B called out.

I say “so what?” If that runner gets too far off the base the pitcher can make a play on her and get her out. Or she can throw it away and the runner scores. So what? Defensive mistake – that’s part of the game. Lets have good coaching, not rules changes. All the pitcher has to do is fake a throw at the runner an instant before the B-R reaches 1B. Then the runner off 3B is either stopped, or leaning back, or started back towards 3B. An instant later the LBR can be invoked, and what is the runner going to do, except head back to 3B – or be called out.

WMB

[chuck chopper]

I got it now !

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
”why should the offense be deprived from advancing at will? “

They are not! They can advance all they want. They are deprived of stopping, dancing around, taunting the pitcher, playing games. The LBR is in effect as soon as they stop and they must move directly to a base.

If F1 fields a batted ball and chooses not to make any further play, then that’s the end of it and the LBR will eventually come into effect. That is the identical action to when a fielder chooses not to make any further play and throws the ball to the pitcher in the circle. That is the identical action to when the catcher chooses not to make any further play and throws the ball to the pitcher in the circle. At that time the defense has chosen to end the play and the LBR is now available to end the taunting and game playing of the runners.

It is such a simple concept and I fail to understand why so many have a problem with the LBR.

You are once again helping me make my point. It is obvious the pitcher gains an advantage the rest of the defense does not enjoy. Hence, the offense must play a different game if the pitcher fields the ball in the circle and that just isn't right.

This is what makes the FP game boring. The defense can control a runner by just throwing the ball to the pitcher in the circle as opposed to being forced to play on the runner.

1. In FP the ball is always live
2. The defense determines when to end playing on runner
3. The LBR then forces the runners to a base so that the next play (a pitch) can begin.

In SP the umpire arbitrarily kills the ball and forces all runners to a base in preparation of the next play. In FP the ball stays live and it is the choice of the defense to end the play.

Just not true. The umpire does not "arbitrarily" kill a play. The play ends and the ball becomes dead. And again, why should the defense have the advantage of forcing a play to end without engaging the runner?

” has been stated here repeatedly by all parties, nothing is supposed to happen between plays. So what is the big deal, other than the inflated FP egos, if we just kill the ball between plays.”

It is not inflated egos, Mike. There is a basic conceptual difference between the FP and SP games that you don’t seem to be able to comprehend.

SP, as Tom noted previously, is a “start ‘n stop” game. Ball is live when pitched, and dead at the end of the pitch. If the ball is hit, then the deadball point is extended to when the ball is secure in the infield and no player is attempting a play anymore. Then you reset – send runners to a base, get the batter ready, and start the next play with a pitch. Start, stop. Start, stop, Start, stop until you finally reach the end of the game. Note also that runs are scored by hitting the ball. Pitch, hit, get on base – kill play. Pitch, hit the ball, score – kill play.

And here I was under the impression you knew something about the SP game. The ball does not become dead at the end of a pitch. Runners are allowed to steal, they may be picked off by the catcher and the get a base if the pitch leaves playable territory.

In FP the ball is always in play (other than obvious exceptions such as foul ball, times out, etc.) You don’t call time when a runner is off the base. Because of that, FP added the LBR to force runners back to a base and quit taunting the defense.

So all that means is that the umpire just doesn't call time. Have the umpire call time and it has the same affect on the game.

Note also that runs are ‘manufactured’ in FP. Many runs are scored without the benefit of a hit. As I said before, start killing the ball all the time, and you kill the game.

That is pure rubbish. If the runners cannot advance during this period, how can killing the ball affect the game?

In normal SP the ball can become dead when runners are off the base. When you added stealing to SP you had to keep the ball live at the end of a pitch. Now you kill it when the pitcher has it, AND the runner is stopped. Wow – there is that word “stop!” Lifted from the FP LBR? Instead of a circle, you have “vicinity.” Lifted from the FP LBR? But if a “play” is being made on a runner, you don’t kill the ball. Lifted from the FP LBR?

Actually, it is not vicinity, it is anywhere in the infield. And it is not when the runner is stopped, but when all further play is obviously finished. SP had stealing about five years before they tried to tighten the rule. After less than a year, it was discovered that the crap they added (what you note above) just isn't worth the effort and screws the game up more than help it. Just as I propose it would help the FP game.

So why didn’t you just bring the LBR over to SP? BECAUSE SP is based on killing the play. So you have your version of the LBR modified to fit the SP game. When the runner is off the base after a pitch, and the pitcher has the ball in the vicinity of the plate, and the runner has stopped – kill the play and send the runner back to the base.

Under the LBR in FP we don’t kill the play, we allow the runners to return. If they don’t, we call them out.

Different games, different philosophies. Legitimately - different rules.

SP has created a potential future morass of problems by adding stealing to its rules. Their initial rules were adopted from the FP LBR and modified to fit the SP concept. As runners and defenders get to know the new game they will stretch the rules, and require new interpretations, and eventually tweaking of the rules to stay ahead of the players.

FP has already been down this road; we have tweaked and modified our LBR. It is fine – let’s leave it alone while SP figures out it’s problems.

WMB

Well, WMB, I think you have proven my point. It is obvious that you haven't been paying attention to the SP game and are so submersed in the FP game, you cannot see the trees from the forest. The game is presently boring. So boring I know baseball umpires (and they work a boring game) which get bored working FP softball. You claim that SP is a start and stop game. As far as I am concerned, SP is the epitome of an action sport. On any given pitch, the batter can hit the ball to any field in any manner. Those who participate in this "old, beer-bellied player" sport advance the longer bases in a much quicker fashion and challenge the defense to play the game.

Yes there are some runners who choose to attempt to play games by standing still for a period of time and that is when the umpire uses the rules to control the game and move it along. And that means that the umpire must be ready to move on every pitch for every play and just a little bit more than your standard FP game.

Let me see, more hits, more runs and more players get to bat in two-thirds the time it takes to play a FP game. Wow, that a real tough decision....but I think I prefer the SP game.

Once again, I will stand on my original statement.