Failing to advance or Abandoning a base

[whiskers_ump]

The 2004 Case Book says the same thing.

Mike can you explain to us why they cannot be called out
for abanding a base when three different case book plays
tell us that they can.

Thanks,

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
The 2004 Case Book says the same thing.

Mike can you explain to us why they cannot be called out
for abanding a base when three different case book plays
tell us that they can.

Thanks,

Glen,

No, I'm afraid they do not do that. Please read the rule cited and find the similar caveat which allows the umpire to call a player out?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Glen,

No, I'm afraid they do not do that. Please read the rule cited and find the similar caveat which allows the umpire to call a player out?

If you are referring to 10-1K, besides using the generic "retired in accordance with these rules", even if you define "retired" as meaning "by action of the defense" there remain other rules whereby the runner or batter-runner is out that do not meet that defintion and do not require an appeal.

If you are saying that "failing to advance" and "abandoning a base" are special cases of "failure to touch a base," I can find nothing in the rules or interps (POE, Case Book) that supports that.

And finally, there is the direct statement in case play 8.6-1 that the batter-runner "should be declared out by the umpire" ... "as soon as B4 enters his team's area" and "In neither case is it an appeal play."

You're driving me crazy, Mike. Can you say, explicitly, how you are coming to the view that a runner cannot be ruled out for abandoning a base or failing to advance to 1B?

[whiskers_ump]

Mike,

I am still looking....

[whiskers_ump]

If the answer lies in 10-1K, I am missing it.

10-1K. does not include a player entering team area as
an appeal call, nor does it include it necessary to have
an appeal to call a runner out for abandoning a base and
entering team area or leaving field of play.

What are we missing????

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Glen,

No, I'm afraid they do not do that. Please read the rule cited and find the similar caveat which allows the umpire to call a player out?

Mike,

Are you referring to Rule 8-5A? Why would the casebook contradict this ruling.

[IRISHMAFIA]

A runner cannot be called out for failing to advance or abandoning a base.

They can be call out for doing this during a live ball by leaving the field of play and entering DBT.

If they do not leave the field of play, the umpire does not have the authority to rule the out solely for "failing to advance" or "abandoning a base".

I thought you guys would easily get that one. Y'all trying to think too much.

[greymule]

Originally posted by greymule:

Is entering the dugout or leaving the field the key?

That greymule is pretty sharp.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
A runner cannot be called out for failing to advance or abandoning a base.

They can be call out for doing this during a live ball by leaving the field of play and entering DBT.

If they do not leave the field of play, the umpire does not have the authority to rule the out solely for "failing to advance" or "abandoning a base".

I thought you guys would easily get that one. Y'all trying to think too much.

OK... ya got me, Mike. I wasn't paying attention and didn't notice that you were not referring to the presented scenario (which DID have the players entering the dugout), but to the simple "failing to advance" and "abandoning a base" as an isolated act.

Some rule books DO contain the "abandoning" by itself as an OUT. ASA does not. Entering the dugout (or leaving the field of play) during a live ball is what the OUT is for.

[whiskers_ump]

Starting from Tom's originial post and not reading the
last few replies, I will again attempt to give my answers
and then the guru's can hammer away.

Bases loaded, tie game, 7th inning, home team at bat with 2 outs. Ball 4, winning run is walked in.

a) BR does not advance to 1st, but enters dugout.

Out - ASA Rule 8-2D [BR Is Out] Fails to advance,
enters DBT.

b) R1 does not advance to home, but enters dugout.

Out - ASA Rule 8-7U [Runner Is Out] Runner left (abandons), base enters DBT.

Do you call either runner out? Both

Are either of these appeal plays? No

Is there a difference between a) and b)? Yes
BR did not abandon a base, she never had it. Just left
field of play.
R1 abandons a base she had and enters DBT.

ASA Rules, fast pitch please.

[Edited by Dakota on Jun 21st, 2004 at 05:26 PM]
__________________
Tom

Ok - have at me.

[greymule]

So is it or is it not an appeal in SP?

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by greymule
So is it or is it not an appeal in SP?

Rule 8-2D. Exception - (Slow Pitch Only) The ball is dead when runners
are not required to run bases on a HR or four base award, or on a base
on balls. The ball is dead, the BR is not out. Other than on a HR
or four base award, runners cannot advance unless forced.

Evidently not.

[greymule]

It seems to me that 8-2-D is saying that the BR is simply not automatically out for entering his team area after a base on balls, as he would be in FP.

However, he is still obliged to get to 1B eventually. If he remains on the bench, the defense could appeal and BR would then be out.

SP: Tie score, bottom 7, bases loaded, 2 out. BR gets a base on balls and goes directly to his team area and remains there. Ump does not call him out, as ball is dead. However, defense appeals that he did not reach 1B, BR is out and run is nullified. That's the way I read it, anyway.

[Edited by greymule on Jun 25th, 2004 at 10:18 AM]

[Dakota]

I read it as the same as in FP with a HBP. IOW, the batter is not out for entering DBT during a DB.

Presumably, once the umpire determines that the BR has conpleted all the base running s/he intends to do, an appeal for a missed base would be recognized.