LBR

[mcrowder]

On another board, I've made a nuisance of myself regarding a particular situation. Since I respect this board 100 times more than that one, I thought I'd confirm (or quash) my opinion over here. I won't post my opinion until I hear some of yours.

Sitch: BR walks, ball is returned to the pitcher's circle. BR continues past first on her way to 2nd (no problem so far). Pitcher then fakes to first. The fake causes BR to stop and head back toward first base. While BR is headed to first base, pitcher then takes her spot back on the pitching rubber. BR then stops, and runs to 2B.

Is this an LBR violation?

[greymule]

If as BR headed back toward 1B the pitcher went from making a play to standing in the circle (not necessarily on the rubber as in your post) without making a play, BR could indeed reverse direction and run toward 2B without violating the LBR. The fake cancelled everything that happened before it. We start anew when the pitcher ceases to be making a play. The runner is entitled to one stop/change of direction at that point.

If the BR does choose to reverse direction and run for 2B, she must stay in motion toward 2B until F1 makes a play.

If the BR was stopped when F1 ceased making a play, and then BR started back to 1B, she could not reverse direction or stop again.

Do not be misled by the POE (don't have the book with me) that says if the runner is in motion toward a base, she must continue toward that base. It's wrong.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by mcrowder
On another board, I've made a nuisance of myself

Well, that's one word for it!

Originally posted by mcrowder
I won't post my opinion until I hear some of yours.

Too late for that; I participate over there, too.

OK, enough of the poking...

The sitch was originally posted as LL, but speaking ASA (since I don't do LL & have no idea if the ruling is the same)...

When the pitcher made the play on the runner, the runners were released. Any direction the runner begins to move while released is not a "commitment" under the LBR.

Why?

Because the LBR is not in effect.

The pitcher turning back toward the batter re-instates the LBR.

Once the LBR is in effect, any runner in motion is allowed one stop.

This situation was not a look-back violation.

The only reason I did not jump into the thread on eteamz is I was away from the board for a couple of days, the thread had already gone off the rails by the time I read it, and it was posted as LL-specific.

OK, that's three reasons - so sue me!

[SamNVa]

MB,

I too participate on the other board


and


I do agree with Tom,


and


I do, do little league,


and


I still agree with Tom.

SamC

[mcrowder]

So if you guys agree with me, and correctly would rule that she's NOT out, could SOMEONE please support me over there?!?!

[TexBlue]

Well, I haven't read the other board's posts, but it seems like there's too much unanimity here, so, let's try this on for size. While the rule agrees with all of you, the POE's don't.


Now, this isn't verbatim, doncha know, but it says the runner cannot be called out for the LBR if the pitcher makes a play, which includes a fake play. Nowhere does it cover, in the rules or POE's where the LBR is reinstated. So, you can't just have the pitcher fake a play, stop, look at her feet and reinstate the LBR immediately. Until the book specifically states when the LBR is reinstated, how 'bout we just don't enforce it untill all action stops?

Now, I know somebody's gonna bring out a Case Book example and blow holes in this, but what the heck? The Rule Book doesn't cover all the situation, so why not let the powers that be clarify (yeah, right) it a little so we all know what's expected, not just the folks who have a Case Book? Right off hand, this is the only scenario that isn't covered in the book for the LBR. I bet I just opened myself up for another thing, didn't I?

[Edited by TexBlue on Jun 16th, 2004 at 06:50 PM]

[Dakota]

Originally posted by mcrowder
So if you guys agree with me, and correctly would rule that she's NOT out, could SOMEONE please support me over there?!?!

OK.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by mcrowder
So if you guys agree with me, and correctly would rule that she's NOT out, could SOMEONE please support me over there?!?!

As you can see, you just got me sunk into the same mire you were in.

Thanks a bunch.

[mcrowder]

Morons. Sorry bout that. Rey does nothing but screw up newbies over there, by spouting nonsense as if it were fact.

[CecilOne]

"The fake causes BR to stop and head back toward first base. While BR is headed to first base, pitcher then takes her spot ... BR then stops, and runs to 2B."
-------------------------
OK, OK, possible minority opinion although I have just about given up on boards besides this and NFHS.

My first reaction was that the runner must continue toward 1st. When I read the case, I saw the words "BR then stops, and runs to 2B." If I was visualizing the case correctly, that meant the runner had stopped while the pitcher was in the circle and not making a play (after the fake). That would make some think the runner is out trying for 2nd. BUT, that is not the rule and certainly not the intent of the rule. The rule says the runner may stop once and in this case, that means after the pitcher is at rest, not making a play or fake.

However, the ASA and NFHS rules say the exception applies to the pitcher making a play on "another" runner. We probably all ignore the "nother" part; but it is there. PONY says "her or another runner" and NCAA says "the runner or another runner"; which makes the ASA and NFHS rules imply something by omission.

Just to be clear I'll repeat my comment from NFHS:
"I have stated repeatedly that the RCR (runner control rule) is not for cheap outs (give the runner the benefit of the doubt and being human) and no umpire should be looking for cheap outs."

[CecilOne]

"The fake causes BR to stop and head back toward first base. While BR is headed to first base, pitcher then takes her spot ... BR then stops, and runs to 2B."
-------------------------
OK, OK, possible minority opinion although I have just about given up on boards besides this and NFHS.

My first reaction was that the runner must continue toward 1st. When I read the case, I saw the words "BR then stops, and runs to 2B." If I was visualizing the case correctly, that meant the runner had stopped while the pitcher was in the circle and not making a play (after the fake). That would make some think the runner is out trying for 2nd. BUT, that is not the rule and certainly not the intent of the rule. The rule says the runner may stop once and in this case, that means after the pitcher is at rest, not making a play or fake.

However, the ASA and NFHS rules say the exception applies to the pitcher making a play on "another" runner. We probably all ignore the "nother" part; but it is there. PONY says "her or another runner" and NCAA says "the runner or another runner"; which makes the ASA and NFHS rules imply something by omission.

Just to be clear I'll repeat my comment from NFHS:
"I have stated repeatedly that the RCR (runner control rule) is not for cheap outs (give the runner the benefit of the doubt and being human) and no umpire should be looking for cheap outs."

[TexBlue]

CecilOne, are you kin to Glen? I keep having flashbacks when I read your posts.
By the way, I agree with your post. Both of them.