What's going on with lookback?

[Dakota]

So far this season (7 weeks of NFHS ball plus 3 weeks of ASA ball), I've called more runners out for blatent lookback violations than in the last 3 seasons combined.

What I mean by blatent is bold taunting of the pitcher. Latest example - last night, 12U game. Batter-runner rounds first (on a BOB), and stops. Pitcher had the ball in the circle well before BR reached 1st. Runner stands off the base by a couple of feet trying to get a reaction out of the pitcher.

"one thousand one, one thousand t... DEAD BALL - RUNNER OUT"

Had 2, that's TWO, different runners on the same team do the same thing in the same HS game about 2 weeks ago. HS coach was incredulous.

At least the 12U coach said (after the inning was over), "Thank you for calling that. I've been telling her all year about that. I don't know what she thinks she is doing - she's not even very fast."

Anyone else seen an increase in pushing the margins of lookback on rounding bases? Or am I just "lucky"?

[FUBLUE]

Coaches are going to push it, as are runners, when no one calls it. Same concept as pitching violations...if no one calls it, then why follow it? Get a way with what you can get away with.

That being said, GOOD FOR YOU.

[pollywolly60]

I just had an out on the look-back rule last night in 12&under. Same situation as you described - runner rounds first on BOB, pitcher has ball in circle, runner just stands there not commiting either way. I count to myself - one-thousnd one, one thousand two - "Dead Ball, Runner out!". Then the coach comes flying out on the field saying "What was that call? That hasn't been called all season!" Honestly, I've wondered if I would know when the runner had been given enough time to move, but this runner made the call quite clear - I had no doubt it was the right call.

[wadeintothem]

At 12U the caoches really start working on aggressive base running.... the problem is if you say look back to a 12U player (say in an off field conversation) they will respond with a blank stare. I've only called it once and I watch pretty closely. the main problem I've found with look back is how often the pitcher will fake a throw or make some play to invalidate the look back rule - instead of getting their buts in the pitching circle and staying there without making a play. The runners do it because it works at this level. Keep calling it when you see it.. but watch that pitcher close... I cant count the number of times the pitcher as charged the base or faked a throw or even actually threw it, giving up the base or even a run in the process.

[chuck chopper]

I do all non-school ball levels. U12 girls have no idea what so ever what LBR is. U16 maybe 20% of them get it.
Coaches ?- none no all the perameters.
Our group of 30 Umpires- 35% max understand all of it.
We are never going to get a 75% understands it ratio. If I was involved with Federated Level ball perhaps ??

[Skahtboi]

10 weeks of HS ball plus 4 weeks of post season play, I have yet to call anyone out on the lookback rule.

In all the tournaments I have worked since January (nearly one every weekend barring bad weather), I have called one out on a lookback violation. I think that was a 12U, though it could have been a 14U...not sure.

I have called less than 10 nights of rec ball due to the HS schedule, and have had 3-4 violations of the LBR. So, I am seeing it not as a strategy, but as a lack of knowing any better.

[TexBlue]

Yeah, I agree with Scott. I've only called 4 lookbacks all year, from 10-U to 16-U. Most of the kids are pretty well versed in getting back to the base or how to advance to the next one.

I'm starting to think our Texas Teams are reading the rule book or something.

[bobbrix]

i happened to read a very very lengthy debate on this rule on another board a couple nights ago ... (eteamz, i think) ... it got a bit nasty at one point ...


i'll try a simpler scenario to get the answer to my question

- no one on base

- BOB and batter-runner rounds 1st and then, per the rule, she decides to proceed immediately towards 2nd base as soon as the pitcher reaches the circle

- pitcher actually throws to 2nd base and the throw is well ahead of the runner

- the runner knows she will be tagged out even if she slides

- now, the runner can change her mind and try to get back to 1st base, right ? (i.e. as soon as the pitcher either throws or fakes a throw the look back rule gets cancelled at that moment ... the runner can risk trying to get back to 1st or she can try to slide in to 2nd)

is that right ?

regards to all ... bobbrix

[Dakota]

Right.

LBR no longer in effect the moment the pitcher made a play.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by TexBlue
I'm starting to think our Texas Teams are reading the rule book or something.

I can't tell if it is ignorance of the rule or pushing the envelope to see what the runners can get away with, or if it is lack of enforcement ... it is probably a different cause for each instance, but the trend this year was very noticeable compared to previous years.

I'd make a few calls during every season for leaving early, but I can't remember the last time I had so many different runners on different teams at different levels just standing off the base.

I called one (high school) runner out for just standing off of third. She played 1st base on defense. On the way past me to take her position (she was the third out) she said, "I still don't understand that call."

"You were standing off the base."

You know what she said? "I thought you were going to dust off the plate." Amazing. (I guess even I can figure out the cause in this case!)

[wadeintothem]

Any play at all would make the LBR moot. It doesnt even have to be a throw.. a fake throw, stamping your foot in their direction - any thing that can be considered a play on the runner by the pitcher in the circle means the LBR does not apply. They pitcher must stop making plays and stand there in the circle for the LBR to be enforceable by the ump. Like I said above, i see way more of this goofing with a runner than LBR violations... The players go back to their base if the pitcher has the ball in the circle in my experience. They may not know the exact rule or may have never even heard the term LBR, but the coaches teach them to get on the base and stay there when the pitcher has the ball in the circle... so thats what they do (Dakota's league excepted of course

[wadeintothem]

hey that makes me think of something..

How many times have you seen a fake throw force a retreat to a base at the 10U 12U level.. and the baseman isnt anywhere near the play to even receive the throw/apply tag!

I.E. catcher fakes throw to 2B and the 2B and SS is several feet away from the play... but the runner still retreats to the safety of 2B. That always causes me to smile. Funny stuff.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by TexBlue
Yeah, I agree with Scott. I've only called 4 lookbacks all year, from 10-U to 16-U. Most of the kids are pretty well versed in getting back to the base or how to advance to the next one.

I'm starting to think our Texas Teams are reading the rule book or something.

I agree, I only had one that I can remember. It was NFHS.
AFA teams know better. Got several 12U teams in our tourney
tomorrow, so we will see.

[WestMichBlue]

Very timely post. Another umpire and I were discussing this same thing earlier this week. The question was when was the last time you called a LBR violation and neither of us could remember. From freshmen through varsity, the girls simply turn around and go back to their bases now. We decided that it is because they are learning the game some much younger, and so much better, and the coaches are so much better trained, that the LBR is just not an issue anymore. (The majority of our coaches are females that already know the game rather than, as it used to be, ex-baseball coaches that took on a team because "somebody had to do it."}

In this same vein, I've only seen two catchers (both freshmen) that took more than one step and one fake throw before returning the ball to the pitcher. I've only seen two pitchers (one varsity, one sub-varsity) that raised their arm when they turned around to find the runner. I've seen a lot of catchers (including freshmen) that "burn" the ball back to the pitcher, thus preventing the runner from trying for the next base. These kids have learned how to get runners back on the base and the game is a lot better for it.

WMB



WMB

[Edited by WestMichBlue on May 22nd, 2004 at 10:31 AM]

[Del-Blue]

I was watching the Alabama/Cornell game the other day, and I thought I saw a lookback violation that wasn't called. Mind you, I couldn't be sure, because you couldn't see the pitcher and the runner on first in the same picture.

Anyway, this is what I saw. Around the fourth inning, there was a put out at second. The pitcher got the ball back, and entered the circle from the second base side. She took about four steps and reached the pitchers plate,not making any moves towards the runner at first. All of a sudden, you see the runner on first enter the picture heading for second. Now, the pitcher had the ball in the circle for a good four seconds before you saw the runner in the upper right of the TV screen. Either she was off base for those four seconds before she started to run, or was on base, and ran after the pitcher had the ball in the circle. The only problem was that you couldn't see the runner and the pitcher on the screen at the same time, so you couldn't see everything at the same time. Just looked like the timing was way off by the runner.