Appeal

[WinterWillie]

R1 on second, batter-runner hits long fly ball to center field.
Runner "tags up" on the catch, goes to third and then scores on misplayed ball. What is the proper method for dead ball appeal? Can the defense just ask if the runner left early or do they have to physically touch second base with the ball? Although it is the BU's call, can the PU make the call?

[TexBlue]

Single runner on, tag ups are BU's responsibility. Should be watching the PU and the runner. A dead ball appeal, all that is necessary is
"... Blue, did she leave early?" or " Blue, she left early." No action is necessary. If you aren't sure, and you should be, you can check with the PU in a quiet manner. They may have had the angle to help you out on it. It should really be rare for you not to be sure about tag ups with only one runner.

[FUBLUE]

Originally posted by WinterWillie
R1 on second, batter-runner hits long fly ball to center field.
Runner "tags up" on the catch, goes to third and then scores on misplayed ball. What is the proper method for dead ball appeal? Can the defense just ask if the runner left early or do they have to physically touch second base with the ball? Although it is the BU's call, can the PU make the call?

They don't have to touch second base with the ball (or the foot, or the hand, or the knee, etc). They can just ask the umpire. If they ask the wrong umpire, gently direct them to your partner. Personally, if I'm plate, and they ask me, I'll say, "coach, my partner is the person you want to ask."


This being said, does anyone on this board have the plate umpire take that call? Doesn't it make sense for the plate umpire to take that call, since PU is looking right through second base to see the ball in centerfield?

[TexBlue]

This being said, does anyone on this board have the plate umpire take that call? Doesn't it make sense for the plate umpire to take that call, since PU is looking right through second base to see the ball in centerfield?

The BU should have it. If the runner's on 2nd, they should be in C (FP). He can look at the PU raise their arm and look at the runner. Now, it's a different story if there are multiple runners on base.

[FUBLUE]

Originally posted by TexBlue
This being said, does anyone on this board have the plate umpire take that call? Doesn't it make sense for the plate umpire to take that call, since PU is looking right through second base to see the ball in centerfield?

The BU should have it. If the runner's on 2nd, they should be in C (FP). He can look at the PU raise their arm and look at the runner. Now, it's a different story if there are multiple runners on base.

Fly ball to centerfield? You're not buttonhooking in? Why not let PU take fly/tagup and have BU take runner into third? It would be a lot less work and worry for angles, and heck, PU has everything in front of them anyway!

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by FUBLUE
[QUOTE\

This being said, does anyone on this board have the plate umpire take that call? Doesn't it make sense for the plate umpire to take that call, since PU is looking right through second base to see the ball in centerfield?

This is a variation to the standard mechanic that our association uses.
All unpires are trained in this variation for the game.
We use it with slow-pitch also.
It is a variation and as long as everyone knows how it is going to be handled, it works with no problems.

Scott

[IRISHMAFIA]

A couple of points here (Speaking ASA)

Unless the BU goes out, they always have the tag on a catch UNLESS they communicate with their partner to deviate from the prescribed mechanic. We have all heard a similar phrase, "if you deviate, communicate". Not only is that acceptable, but it works.

The umpire with the tag-up responsibility should NEVER, NEVER be looking for the other umpire to make a signal, but at the ball for first contact. An umpire's signal has absolutely NO bearing on when a runner may leave the base.

Most often, the defense is going to look at the PU to make the appeal. If the call is not that of the PU, s/he should step out and repeat the appeal to his/her partner and allow them to make the call. It is not unusual in some cases for the PU to have this call along with the BU if the flight of the ball drew his/her line of vision with that of the runner on the base. When this is the case, the PU may assume responsibility for the call and not pass it off to the partner.

There are also times which getting the correct angle might be difficult. If the appeal goes to one umpire who may not be sure, a quick glance at the partner may help especially if s/he is standing there, tapping their chest with a finger as in, "give me the call, I've got it."

[TexBlue]

The umpire with the tag-up responsibility should NEVER, NEVER be looking for the other umpire to make a signal, but at the ball for first contact. An umpire's signal has absolutely NO bearing on when a runner may leave the base.

In our group here, the PU is taught to raise their arm on the touch of the fly ball, and complete the out signal on the catch. So, in our case, when the arm starts going up, the BU knows the runner may leave.

Even in our state ASA clinics ( of which I haven't gone to in 3 years now ) they told us the BU should not be watching the ball in flight. Their attention should be in the infield. The PU's concerns are in the outfield. Of course, as Mike stated, a lot of ways work, you just have to cover them in your pregame and be on the same page. If my partner and I do the tag ups the same way, our way works fine. If not, there isn't a system out there that's gonna work. Unless you use solo mechanics.

What stinks is when you go over your pregame mechanics, agree on the way to do things and then your partner goes off in another world and doesn't do anything like what was discussed. I don't care how we do things, as long as we agree on how to do it. About the only thing I refuse to do is college mechanics in ASA or Fed ball. A lot of the guys wanna do it that way, which is fine. In college games. If I'm enforcing ASA rules, I'm using ASA mechanics.

[FUBLUE]

Blues---great discussion. I was somewhat playing devil's advocate, just trying to see what everyone says about this. I think it would be easier for the BU to focus on getting inside the diamond, then take the runner to third. PU has a great angle on that call.

IF ball is hit to right field, BU has a great angle on the first touch/catch and tag-up. Doesn't even have to buttonhook in...everything is in front of the umpire.

TexBlue...as for the hand up thing, could lead to a lot of confusion for teams...great communication device for umpires, but not good communications for teams (at least not always).

Mr. Mafia...as a fellow ASA-er, I agree, BU has call UNLESS WE DEVIATE AND COMMUNICATE. That's what gets me about some umpires...they don't talk in pre-game (or listen to deviations) and don't talk during games. I'm constantly talking to my partner when needed.

The TWO UMPIRE system is a good basis for everyone to work off of. But it isn't as effective as it could be, and that's why we deviate.

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by FUBLUE

TexBlue...as for the hand up thing, could lead to a lot of confusion for teams...great communication device for umpires, but not good communications for teams (at least not always).

Ahhh, but the signal is for the blues only. We have never given a consideration to the coaches at all. This is for us and us only. Let 'em get their own signals. It's just a system we use and, when used as a team, it works well.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by TexBlue

Ahhh, but the signal is for the blues only. We have never given a consideration to the coaches at all. This is for us and us only. Let 'em get their own signals. It's just a system we use and, when used as a team, it works well.

Signals are for the players and fans. ASA Umpire Manual, Page 204:

Signaling is a very important aspect of umpiring. Decisions are relayed to the player, coaches and spectators by their use. The adopted signals are dignified, informative, meaningful, and therefore, shall be used by all umpires. Poorly executed and unauthorized signals serve only to confuse.

If an umpire raises their right arm on a ball to the outfield, they better be calling an out, home run or a two/four base award.

Even if the umpire is looking for it, the human response time can make a difference between the umpire making a bad or correct call.

From ASA Umpire Manual on page 242 of the rule book:

"BOTH UMPIRES must hustle at all time, never take their eyes off the ball and be in the correct position on all calls."

Obviously, an umpire must take their eyes off the ball to watch a runner touch a base, but the umpire should immediately relocate the ball. Sorry, but I must completely disagree with your mechanic. You will never see this mechanic taught in any national school or clinic.

[azbigdawg]

I gotta agree with Mike..... It doesnt seem like a good idea. If you go to regional or national tournaments, you may (will) fall back on the habits that u use most of the time....

[rwest]

My understanding of SP ASA Fly Ball mechanics is as follows:

If in the situation given previously, we have a runner on 2nd and the batter hits a fly ball to Center Field, I as the BU will button hook inside the diamond, as I have responsibility for the batter-runner touching first. I also am responsible for him all the way to third base, being that the batter-runner is the trailing runner. I'm not looking to see if the ball is caught. That's the PU responsibility. He's got the catch and the tag.

Is there a problem with my understanding?

In our association, we use verbal communication. The PU will usually say "I've got the tag at 2nd". If there are multiple runners on, say 2nd and 3rd, then the PU will say "I've got the tag at 3rd", the BU will normally respond "I've got the tag at 2nd". In this situation, if the ball is not caught the BU has to quickly turn to first to make sure the batter-runner touched first.

How do you communicating to the BU that the runner can leave? For example, what happens when the ball is touched by the outfielder but not caught? If I'm watching the runner at 2nd, I need to know when he can leave. The PU should indicate as soon as the ball is touched that the runner can leave, whether the ball was caught or not. Should you say something like "Let'm go!"?

[azbigdawg]

The best way to handle it is get in proper position inside the diamond and take a quick look at the runners to see what they are doing (on the base, off the base, whatever)... FIND THE BALL AND SEE THE CATCH....then take you eyes back to the runner.. if hes more than a step or two off the bag, he probably left early..if hes within a couple of steps of the base, he probably didnt leave early. Thats the best way to handle it..its easy with one runner... and only a little less easy with 2 runners.

[rwest]

I take it from your reply that you believe it is the BU's responsibility to determine if a player left too soon? Is this correct? Also, is this the case in all situations or are there instances that the PU would be responsible for one or more bases?

Thanks!
Randall