Injuries during steals of home in Men's ASA SP?

[Bluefoot]

I attended a pre-season organizational meeting for a Men's ASA SP Rec league that I work here in Connecticut to familiarize the teams with the new rules for this season and to discuss them. The league is considering modifying the stealing rule for their league only, so that a steal of home is not possible. Some are concerned that many collisions and possible injuries will occur when F1 and/or F2 will collide with incoming runners at the plate during live ball "steal" situations. Although this is a new rule this year, does anyone have any relevant experience and opinions on whether collisions/injuries are more frequent during these types of plays?

Logistically, their modification to the rule could present some strange scenarios, depending on exactly how their modification is worded. For instance, R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B. R2 can advance to 2B, but R1 can't go home. Or R1 on 2B and tries to advance to 3B: catcher's throw to 3B goes into left field, but R1 can't score and must stay at 3B.

This league will also probably be voting in using the 1-up rule to their HR limit of 3.

They will probably start using the double base this year, and I also requested to see if they could get the 8' radius circle around the pitcher's plate lined for each game, which would be new, and certainly a help to me, as well as them.

Thanks for your input.

If the catcher's throw to 3rd base goes into the outfield, it would be considered an error and therefore advancement by the runner on 3rd base should be allowed. It would not be considered a steal because a play was being made on the runner.

[wadeintothem]

As a catcher many moons ago, I once ate the cleat of a larger than normal stealer who plowed into me with the failed intent of knocking the ball loose .. but resulting in several stitches in my lip. The play is designed to destroy the catcher causing them to drop the ball, IMO, since it is obvious they will likely have the ball and decent chance of a play on the runner.... That said, I consider it part of the game. If the concern is injuries.. it is a valid concern, as the scar tissue i have some 25+ years later can attest.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Bluefoot
I attended a pre-season organizational meeting for a Men's ASA SP Rec league that I work here in Connecticut to familiarize the teams with the new rules for this season and to discuss them. The league is considering modifying the stealing rule for their league only, so that a steal of home is not possible. Some are concerned that many collisions and possible injuries will occur when F1 and/or F2 will collide with incoming runners at the plate during live ball "steal" situations. Although this is a new rule this year, does anyone have any relevant experience and opinions on whether collisions/injuries are more frequent during these types of plays?

Yes, I do. They don't exist!

The only rule change was to allow stealing. Another rule change was to require a defender to have possession of the ball or get the hell out of the way.

There was no change on "crashes, collisions or interference." If there are still collisions on this type of play, you may want to start dumping people for USC.

Logistically, their modification to the rule could present some strange scenarios, depending on exactly how their modification is worded. For instance, R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B. R2 can advance to 2B, but R1 can't go home. Or R1 on 2B and tries to advance to 3B: catcher's throw to 3B goes into left field, but R1 can't score and must stay at 3B.

So, in effect, they are playing 10U running rules. A bit extreme if you ask me, but it's their league.

[chuck chopper]

Once they decide no stealing allowed at home, they should stick to it. Once they allow stealing at home "IF" the throw from the catcher gets away from the intended fielder, then they have just failed to avoid the contact that may follow. So I say even if the ball went all the way to the outfield TUFF..runner is froze at 3rd.

So Chuck, you're saying the offense should suffer the consequences for the defense playing lousy? That takes from the spirit of the rules.

[chuck chopper]

I'm trying to add consistancy to their league rule. What if the throw hits the third baseman in the leg and rolls 15 feet away. The runner steals, and they have the crash at home. They were trying to avoid this. The alternative for them if they are really worried about crashes, is to perhaps use the secondary home plate like the seniors do.

[wadeintothem]

In my humble opinion, a league should not be SO concerned with injuries we change the face of the game. Everyone knows and accepts the risks and they are there in all sports. As a catcher, the danger was one of the draws: i.e. the action, intensity etc. Even the new ASA obstruction rule in some ways bug me. I see the leagues point.... and it's likely due to lawsuits or whatever, but I see it as a degrading of certain facets of the game we all know and love. I've taken the hits, as have most former players, and it's just what it takes to play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by wadeintothem
In my humble opinion, a league should not be SO concerned with injuries we change the face of the game. Everyone knows and accepts the risks and they are there in all sports. As a catcher, the danger was one of the draws: i.e. the action, intensity etc. Even the new ASA obstruction rule in some ways bug me. I see the leagues point.... and it's likely due to lawsuits or whatever, but I see it as a degrading of certain facets of the game we all know and love. I've taken the hits, as have most former players, and it's just what it takes to play.

That's fine, but part of ASA's mission is an evervigilant effort to increase participation and maintain a safe and fair playing environment. Just because we use to get down and dirty, doesn't mean today's player will do the same.

Not only the litigation, but the fact that was all have other commitments in life including family, work and home and they cannot be quite taken care of because someone thinks they are the reincarnation of Ty Cobb.

Here's a thought...really learn the ASA stealing rule and use it as it is. It will work. If there is a hesitant element who has any fears, don't use it at all.

Maybe teams will just move those huge 1st basemen to catcher!!! Then the collisions would be the last thing a baserunner will think about.

[oppool]

Havent called but 3 games so far and watch a few more where stealing is allowed BUT its not as big thing as many might think in the SP world remember they cant leave till the ball reaches the front plane of home plate so unless you have very deep back stops stealing home is not going to be a problem. As for stealing generally you will see about 2 or less steals per game maybe after the guys get used to it will see a little more. Havent seen a close play yet...

Now the only thing I would like to add is I hope next year in SP that ASA will use the C slot as we do in fast pitch mechanics just make a lot more sense to me then the mechanics they are using now


JMO

Don

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by oppool
Havent called but 3 games so far and watch a few more where stealing is allowed BUT its not as big thing as many might think in the SP world remember they cant leave till the ball reaches the front plane of home plate so unless you have very deep back stops stealing home is not going to be a problem. As for stealing generally you will see about 2 or less steals per game maybe after the guys get used to it will see a little more. Havent seen a close play yet...

Now the only thing I would like to add is I hope next year in SP that ASA will use the C slot as we do in fast pitch mechanics just make a lot more sense to me then the mechanics they are using now


JMO

Don

Don,

Thank you. This is exactly what I have been saying since they passed this in November. Everyone is so up in arms about this and most have never even worked or seen it in action.

However, as far as your take on the mechanics, I would disagree with you. If you were shown the proper mechanic for this, I don't see how you could possibly believe being behind the SS is a good position for the SP game.

[oppool]

Havent done enough games to have a strong opinion yet on this Mike but coming in from the B slot to get the runner stealing from 2nd to 3rd the best position you can obtain is just left of the pitcher mound trying to look in at the play and if you have a fast runner also on 1st then you must try to avoid the collision between yourself and the runner.

From the C slot you can follow that runner from the outside and get the proper 90% to gave yourself the best chance on making the proper call and as in FP making that call at 1st from the C slot is not that tough except for those pulled foot and missed bag chances which you have to hope PU is watching for needed assistance. The C slot seems to work well in FP dont see why same mechanics cant work on SP

JMO

Don

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by oppool
Havent done enough games to have a strong opinion yet on this Mike but coming in from the B slot to get the runner stealing from 2nd to 3rd the best position you can obtain is just left of the pitcher mound trying to look in at the play and if you have a fast runner also on 1st then you must try to avoid the collision between yourself and the runner.

From the C slot you can follow that runner from the outside and get the proper 90% to gave yourself the best chance on making the proper call and as in FP making that call at 1st from the C slot is not that tough except for those pulled foot and missed bag chances which you have to hope PU is watching for needed assistance. The C slot seems to work well in FP dont see why same mechanics cant work on SP

JMO

Don

Don,

On the play you describe, runner on 2B stealing 3B, the BU should be standing directly behind 2B only as deep as a direct line between the two closest fielders.

If the runner takes off, you simply step inside toward the pitcher's plate to get the angle on a call at 3B.

It works.

[azbigdawg]

Mike, I gotta disagree with you...We tried it several times in a clinic and found out that being that far behind the play DOES NOT work. Too many chances to miss something Ideally HP has the best angle. But we know that they wont give him that call.