2-man Mechanics, bunt situation

[WestMichBlue]

Runner at 1B, less than 2 outs, obvious bunt situation. F5 and F3 charge, F6 to 2B, F4 to 1B. With any agressive team, R1 is going to hit 2B and keep going, unless F7 get in to cover 3B.

My issue is PU mechanics. It is going to get congested in front of the plate with F1, F2, F3, F5, B-R, and ball all in this small area. Obviously PU has to cover fair/foul and possible OBS/INT. However, after a play at first, if R1 is going to 3B there is going to be a very fast throw to 3B. In my mind, the PU is going to have to bail out as soon as the throw is made to 1B to have any chance of getting close to 3B.

In doing so, you obviously give up your view of 3' lane violations/swipe tag/pulled foot. Is that the lessor of two evils? (The greater not being in position to make an out/safe call at 3B.)

WMB

[TexBlue]

Well, you're in position as PU to make the Fair/Foul call. You should be able to see the fielder, whichever one it is, make the throw to 1st. In that split second, you should be able to see if the ball is headed towards the BR either in or out of the running lane. Decision time. Stay with that play, or head towards 3rd for the possible play there. Following the play and the ball, you should have a good feel for where you're needed the most. Of course, 3rd has a higher priority than 1st. But, then, if you see the ball headed towards the BR's head or back, I'd stay with that situation. If it's gonna hit the BR, there won't be a quick throw to 3rd.

Whaddya think?

[chuck chopper]

PU has to stay near home but perhaps just up the 3rd base line a bit in foul territory. If the throw goes to third that call will just have to be made from 45-50 feet.

[SamNVa]

Since the PU has to stay with the play most of the way to 1st why not just have the PU make the call at 1st and let the BU move over to 3rd for the possible play there. Of course this is something that would have to be covered in your pregame to make sure both umpires are on the same page.

SamC

[chuck chopper]

The PU is still making the call from 50 feet, there is no advantage and now the BU is running accross the infield chasing the BR where at least the PU has a good perpendicular angle at 3rd if something happens there.

[Andy]

Originally posted by SamNVa
Since the PU has to stay with the play most of the way to 1st why not just have the PU make the call at 1st and let the BU move over to 3rd for the possible play there. Of course this is something that would have to be covered in your pregame to make sure both umpires are on the same page.

SamC

What you are going to have here is two calls being made from a long way away. The PU is not going to be able to get close to first due to the congestion around the plate area after the bunt.

The BU is going to be moving from the B position and will have a long way to go to get to a good position to make a call on a tag play at third. The BU will also be moving across a potential throwing lane from first to third.

As to the original question of how to cover the play, I say that the PUs first responsibility is the play at first involving the running lane and F4 moving to the bag to take the throw and having trouble finding the bag. The BU has the initial call at first, but too much other stuff can happen and the PU needs to be available for help. As PU on this play, I will first determine fair/foul, follow the throw to first for help while trying to pick up the runner from first with my periphial vision. I can drift some toward third base and still have an angle to help on the play at first. Even though I may be far from third for a play there, I have established a good angle to view the play from and can close hard to make a call if needed.

[chuck chopper]

Thats about how I would do it. Let me tangle up this bunt mess. I have never liked the interference from the batter on the catcher. Somehow in my heart I think the catcher should have to wait until the batter passes on the way to first. Sometimes the pitcher & catcher do not talk. The pitcher moves in as soon as the batter squares, the runner starts to go, then the catcher moves forward and there is a collision. The rules says the catcher has a right to make a play even though the pitcher is already doing the same thing. Do you guys get in this mess often ?

[SamNVa]

Orginally posted by SamNVa Since the PU has to stay with the play most of the way to 1st why not just have the PU make the call at 1st and let the BU move over to 3rd for the possible play there. Of course this is something that would have to be covered in your pregame to make sure both umpires are on the same page.

Ok, that was a bad idea.

Orginally posted by chuckchopper Thats about how I would do it. Let me tangle up this bunt mess. I have never liked the interference from the batter on the catcher. Somehow in my heart I think the catcher should have to wait until the batter passes on the way to first. Sometimes the pitcher & catcher do not talk. The pitcher moves in as soon as the batter squares, the runner starts to go, then the catcher moves forward and there is a collision. The rules says the catcher has a right to make a play even though the pitcher is already doing the same thing. Do you guys get in this mess often?

Actually Chuck, if two or more players are attempting to make a play on the ball, the umpire gets to decide who to protect on the play, so if. IYJ, F1. F3, or F5 has a better chance to make a play on the bunted ball, then F2 would not be afforded any protection and could be guilty of obstruction if she gets tangled up with the BR.

SamC

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by SamNVa
Since the PU has to stay with the play most of the way to 1st why not just have the PU make the call at 1st and let the BU move over to 3rd for the possible play there. Of course this is something that would have to be covered in your pregame to make sure both umpires are on the same page.

SamC

Sam, I don't believe your thoughts on this are too bad.

This is the one time that as PU, leave from the right side
of the dish following the play. Everything is still in
front of you and if necessary you could get to 2B. BU goes
to 3rd and in position to get home if necessary.

[Roger Greene]

Originally posted by chuck chopper
Thats about how I would do it. Let me tangle up this bunt mess. I have never liked the interference from the batter on the catcher. Somehow in my heart I think the catcher should have to wait until the batter passes on the way to first. Sometimes the pitcher & catcher do not talk. The pitcher moves in as soon as the batter squares, the runner starts to go, then the catcher moves forward and there is a collision. The rules says the catcher has a right to make a play even though the pitcher is already doing the same thing. Do you guys get in this mess often ?

I use the following rules of thumb (actually a BB ruling, but works well for softball also).

If F2 trips or obstructs BR from behind, then you have obstruction.

If BR runs into F2 fielding a batted ball (this meaning F2 has reached the spot of contact first), then you have interference.

A bump occuring on the initial movements of F2 and the BR is a nothing, play on, WYSIWYG.

Roger Greene

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Roger Greene

I use the following rules of thumb (actually a BB ruling, but works well for softball also).

If F2 trips or obstructs BR from behind, then you have obstruction.

If BR runs into F2 fielding a batted ball (this meaning F2 has reached the spot of contact first), then you have interference.

A bump occuring on the initial movements of F2 and the BR is a nothing, play on, WYSIWYG.

Roger Greene

As ASA considers some collisions just part of the natural flow of the game, they suggest the umpire take the following into consideration when offering a ruling on this play.

Did the BR alter their direct heading toward 1B to draw an obstruction call(I would assume this includes the BR hesitating and clearing the box immediately)?

Did the catcher alter their effort to field the ball in an effort to draw an interference call?

Did the catcher actually capable of getting an out on the play?

I would probably go one step further in the process of making a judgment on the play. I would take in consideration if either of the players initiating the contact trying to push the other aside in an attempt to reach their independent goals.

Other than that, I'll stick with Roger (and his little ball game) and say anything else is WYSIWYG. I love that acronym!

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by SamNVa
Since the PU has to stay with the play most of the way to 1st why not just have the PU make the call at 1st and let the BU move over to 3rd for the possible play there. Of course this is something that would have to be covered in your pregame to make sure both umpires are on the same page.

SamC

________________________________________________
SamC & Others,

This does work. My Partner and I used this procedure twice
in games yesterday. Since seeing this post, we naturally
discussed this in our pregame. On one of the plays, I was
the BU and had to cover 3rd on the play. Nothing happened
ball was thrown out of play, but we had it covered.
glen

[SamNVa]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump

________________________________________________
SamC & Others,

This does work. My Partner and I used this procedure twice
in games yesterday. Since seeing this post, we naturally
discussed this in our pregame. On one of the plays, I was
the BU and had to cover 3rd on the play. Nothing happened
ball was thrown out of play, but we had it covered.
glen

Hey Glen,

Thanks for the validation. It seems that I might have backed off of my idea somewhat prematurely.

Now if I can only convince people to put the BU in B with a runner on 2nd with 1st base open, and let the PU take the steals of 3rd, then we won't have as big a problem with the BU getting in posiion to see a pulled foot at 1st.

SamC

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by SamNVa


Now if I can only convince people to put the BU in B with a runner on 2nd with 1st base open, and let the PU take the steals of 3rd, then we won't have as big a problem with the BU getting in posiion to see a pulled foot at 1st.

SamC

Fine. Now envision this. RH batter, runner on 2B.

Wild pitch/passed ball that draws the catcher toward the PU and pushes the umpire back to his/her left. Now you have the PU and B possibly in a throwing lane. Getting pushed back and to the right would not exactly be the ideal position to make a call at 3B, either.

PU's primary concern on this play CANNOT be to get into a position to make that call at 3B. S/he primary concern MUST be to allow the catcher access to the ball, then remain outside the throwing lane. BTW, this is now true in the SP game, also. Considering this exact point, they have decided to put the BU behind 2B in this scenario so s/he may step up through 2B when the runner vacates the area to get a view of the play at 3B.