First HS game lst night...situation

[Andy]

First HS game last night, little sore this morning, little rusty last night, but it felt good to get back on the field.

Here is a situation that I would like comment on:

R1 on first, no outs. Batter hits sinking line drive to F4.

I, as PU, thought I saw F4 pick up the ball on the short hop and started to signal a no-catch. Just as I started, my partner, in B position about three steps to the left of F4, comes up with a strong catch and out signal. I defered to his call because he had the better angle, looking at the play from the side. Technically, the catch/no-catch is the PU's call.

Fortuneately, I had not gotten too far into my big no-catch signal, so we avoided any problems on this play. Two questions for comments:

What is the best way to handle this play?
How do we resolve the situation if one umpire is signaling a catch and out, and one umpire is signaling a no-catch?

[whiskers_ump]

Andy,

That is a tough one. However, did BU have to go out on
the play. From your post, probably not. However, all
fly balls are the PU call. Since you had R1, BU in B
postiion, I realize he was right at the play, but was
fielder in front of him. If player was in front of him
you had the best view. I still would think it would be
PU call, unless he made an effort to out to ball.

JMHO

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
Andy,

That is a tough one. However, did BU have to go out on
the play. From your post, probably not. However, all
fly balls are the PU call. Since you had R1, BU in B
postiion, I realize he was right at the play, but was
fielder in front of him. If player was in front of him
you had the best view. I still would think it would be
PU call, unless he made an effort to out to ball.

JMHO

I would like to know where the BU started if he had to "go out" on a line drive to F4. I think it is obvious that this is not possible from the proper positioning of a BU and Glen was just running through the routine of the occasion the BU takes that call.

It is possible, depending on the location of the ball to the fielder, that the BU did get a good angle. Luckily, Andy wasn't in so much of a hurry he saw his partner and had time to back-off to avoid would have definitely become a serious "discussion".

[SamNVa]

Orginally posted by Andy
What is the best way to handle this play?
How do we resolve the situation if one umpire is signaling a catch and out, and one umpire is signaling a no-catch?

To answer yout specific questions. Assuming that you had not seen your partner, and had signalled NO CATCH, the correct way to handle the situation is to call TIME at the earliest possible moment and confer with your partner, then you as the PU announce the results of yoru conference, qne qpply 10-6-C to fix any problems that may have resulted from the changed call (e.g. R1 gets tagged out trying to advance to 2nd based you your call of NO CATCH when you decide to rule a catch after confering with your partner.

IMHO,
SamC

[chuck chopper]

I don't do school ball, & not sure if ASA National would like this. When I work with someone else and I am the PU, I usually tell the BU during pregame chat that he has all trap calls in the outfield (I verbalize the clear catches)& I will call all the traps/catches in the infield. In this case I would had called trap. Not sure what to say if I was wrong & my BU wanted to over-rule me being right next to the play. That could be a whole other subject.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by chuck chopper
I don't do school ball, & not sure if ASA National would like this

Are you concerned that ASA would attempt to punish you for calling school ball? They won't. Here is the text of a "Dual Participation Resolution" signed by several softball sanctioning organizations:

“Dual Participation Resolution”


The national softball organizations listed below do not have any national rules, nor will allow any of their state or metro associations to have any such rules, that deny or place any restrictions or penalties on teams, players, or umpires that become members of other softball organizations for the purpose of participating in programs of such other organizations.

The below listed organizations further agree that any such restrictions on participation contrary to the purpose of the Amateur Sports Act of 1978, and are contrary to the best interest of the public, players, umpires and the sport of softball.

Each listed organization agrees to support the intent and purpose of this resolution and promptly investigate for the purpose of correcting any such complaint that violates the spirit of this agreement.

Signed by:

Wayne Myers, President, ASA
Don Porter, Executive Director, ASA
Al Ramsey, Executive Director, USSSA
Don DeDonatis, Summit Chairman, USSSA National President
Milt Stark, Executive Director, ISC
Patrick Bucknell, NAFA
Hugh Cantrell, Executive Director, NSA
Dave Carrol, Executive Director, ISA

Since this document was agreed to (sorry, I don't know the date) several other organization have also signed on.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Luckily, Andy wasn't in so much of a hurry he saw his partner and had time to back-off to avoid would have definitely become a serious "discussion".

Yes, luckily. The BU jumped on a call that wasn't his. If he clearly saw the OUT, he should still hold off, waiting on the PU's call, and then deal with what he saw (if different from the PU's call) only if asked. If I was the BU, I would be signaling the PU with a closed fist by my leg, or some other mutually agreed signal that I had something to say to him.

[chuck chopper]

No, I'm not worried about that. I have to work until 4:30 to 5 or so, so that is why any school ball is out of the question. Once I retire in about 15 years or so, then maybe I can do school ball since the money is around 65.00 or so instead of 30.00

[TexBlue]

I agree with Chuck Chopper. If that's covered in the pre-game and the BU still does it, we need to have another discussion as soon as possible. Luckily, nothing bad came from this. If so, as was stated, fix the problem, then talk to your partner, and play ball.

[Duke]

Dual Participation:

Up here in the great state of Maine we are all ASA softball umpires.
The Maine Principal Association (MPA) contracts the ASA umpires to due their Federation high school softball games. We all wear ASA uniforms while doing Federation games. Acutally turns out to be a good deal for the umpires as we only need to register for ASA and get to do Federation ball.

[SamNVa]

Originally posted by SamNVa

To answer yout specific questions. Assuming that you had not seen your partner, and had signalled NO CATCH, the correct way to handle the situation is to call TIME at the earliest possible moment and confer with your partner, then you as the PU announce the results of yoru conference, qne qpply 10-6-C to fix any problems that may have resulted from the changed call (e.g. R1 gets tagged out trying to advance to 2nd based you your call of NO CATCH when you decide to rule a catch after confering with your partner.

IMHO,
SamC

The above answer was given assuming that the BU's original out call was the ultimate resolution of the play, but what happens if the PU prevails. Consider this: R1 on 1st, 0 or 1 outs, BR hits the dying quail to F4, BU calls Catch, Out; PU calls No Catch. R1 and F4 respond to BU's call, R1 holds at 1st and F4 throws the ball back to the pitcher. Savvy 1st base coach hears the PU call No Catch and calls the BR back to 1st and has her stand on he bag with R1, then looks expectantly at the PU. So you as the PU reluctantly call time and meet with the BU. The BU rather sheepishly admits that he is not 100% sure that there was a good catch while you are 100% sure that you saw the ball skip into the glove. So armed with this information, you leave the huddle and your ruling is:

1. The catch was good and the batter is out,
2. the catch was not made and the BR gets 1st with R1 going to 2nd,
3. the catch was not made, the BR gets 1st, but R1 is out since F4 would have had an easy plsy, or
4. None of the above - so what do you do instead?

SamC

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by Duke
Dual Participation:

Up here in the great state of Maine we are all ASA softball umpires.
The Maine Principal Association (MPA) contracts the ASA umpires to due their Federation high school softball games. We all wear ASA uniforms while doing Federation games. Acutally turns out to be a good deal for the umpires as we only need to register for ASA and get to do Federation ball.

Better make sure that you are covered by insurance when you are out there, because I highly doubt that ASA's insurance will cover you when you are doing, technically, an unsactioned event. At the same time, I know that NFHS insurance won't cover you, as they have never heard of you since you don't register through them.

Then there is always the issue of rules differences!

[chuck chopper]

Sam, In the case you describe I would let the first call (BU)'s out call stand, and leave the runner on 1st. Since the PU's call came 2nd & would cause you to put runners at each bag that would seem to be the wrong thing to do as it gives the offense an advantage the umpires created. I am saying this for survival reasons.
However I have also heard that if with a runner at first only, we call infield fly, and the fielders let it fall then throw the ball back to the pithcer.. we should place runners at 1st & 2nd. Correcting the wrong call..even if it gives advantage to the offense might be technically the way National want's us to do it. Sometimes we can dig our own hole.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Skahtboi

Better make sure that you are covered by insurance when you are out there, because I highly doubt that ASA's insurance will cover you when you are doing, technically, an unsactioned event. At the same time, I know that NFHS insurance won't cover you, as they have never heard of you since you don't register through them.

Then there is always the issue of rules differences!

This is a good point. Not many HS teams register with ASA. Now, if all the players are registered, the only folks who need to register are those running the program to get the games sanctioned.

[Duke]

I do not know the history on how this all came about but it has been this way as long as I can remember. I have umpired for 12 years and been involved in the game another 10 and ASA umps have always done HS games. I know the state HS's have contracted the ASA to do their games. How exactly that works or came about I do not know. As far as insurance goes, I am covered or at least I have been told that by state officials. I only know of one official that was involve in an accident and utilized the ASA insurance but he was on his way to a sanctioned ASA game at the time. I'd be interested to know if any other state out there has the same set up as we do.