ball lodges with defensive player

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Don't you dare

You know I wouldn't.
I was "gently" setting aside the earlier "MLB recently clairified their ruling on this, FED baseball has been clear for some time"

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Look at it this way. Can the player throw the ball away? If not, she must not have total control, or at least none which she can demonstrate without some possible embarrassment.

I think that fits with my "safe" call.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by mcrowder
But there is a difference between "a catch", and "possession". I'd be inclined to rule that a ball firmly grasped by the hand, even if inside the jersey, is possession (especially if the uniform was loose enough that the player could pull the ball away from the body with the hand and maintain control).

Please cite and quote the rule which defines "possession".

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Please cite and quote the rule which defines "possession".

Here ya go...

RULE 2-2/DEFINITIONS
In Possession
ARTICLE 5. "In possession" is an abbreviation meaning the holding or controlling of a live ball

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota

Here ya go...

Thank you, Tom.

Now the questions become (in Fed), is the player holding the ball or her jersey? Does this constitute control since the player cannot do anything with that ball voluntarily except release it within the confines of her jersey?

[Dakota]

That rule I quoted wasn't Fed... it was NCAA.

[Dakota]

Oh, did I forget to mention... NCAA football!

(Sorry... lame joke, I know).

[Dakota]

Getting back to serious discussion...

Speaking ASA...

Rule 1 - DEFINITIONS - CATCH. A catch is a legally caught ball...
B. If the ball is merely held in the fielder's arm(s) or prevented from dropping to the ground by some part of the fielder's body, equipment or clothing, the catch is not completed until the ball is in the grasp of the fielder's hand(s) or glove. ...
F. An illegally caught ball occurs when a fielder catches a batted or thrown ball with anything other than the hands(s) or glove in its proper place.

Until the fielder retrieves the ball out of her clothing and has it in her hand(s) or glove, it is not yet caught, it seems to me.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
Getting back to serious discussion...

Speaking ASA...

Until the fielder retrieves the ball out of her clothing and has it in her hand(s) or glove, it is not yet caught, it seems to me.

Tom,

Since a player cannot have possession of the ball without "catching" the ball, I believe, in ASA, the requirements are basically the same.

[Del-Blue]

I would have to say, a ball that cannot be given to another player is a ball which isn't controled. Therefore, if the first base person wants control of the ball, it better either be in her hand, or her glove. inside her shirt ain't going to get it.

[mcrowder]

A player can definitely be in possession of a ball he/she did not catch. The most obvious example being the fielding of a ball or simply the picking up of a ball on the ground. The "catch" rules sited are in reference to CATCHING a ball (in other words, controlling a batted ball before it hits the ground in such a way to allow an OUT to be called). You certainly wouldn't be using the same rules to say a fielder didn't POSSESS the ball when he/she tagged a player simply because he didn't catch it before it hit the ground. The rules sited are irrelevant to this topic.

I don't have the book in front of me. But we should be looking at the rules desribing what a fielder must do with the ball when tagging an opponent or touching a base for a force.

Also - what a player may or may not do with a ball is also irrelevant to whether he/she controls it. It was mentioned that if a player couldn't throw the ball or hand the ball to a teammate, he doesn't possess it. Where is that in the book? I've never heard such a description of possession (in any sport). Certainly if the player's grasp (by her hand) is keeping the ball from dropping (to the ground or further down the shirt), the hand is CONTROLLING the ball - which is what is at issue.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by mcrowder
A player can definitely be in possession of a ball he/she did not catch. The most obvious example being the fielding of a ball or simply the picking up of a ball on the ground. The "catch" rules sited are in reference to CATCHING a ball (in other words, controlling a batted ball before it hits the ground in such a way to allow an OUT to be called). You certainly wouldn't be using the same rules to say a fielder didn't POSSESS the ball when he/she tagged a player simply because he didn't catch it before it hit the ground. The rules sited are irrelevant to this topic.

Well, I certainly wouldn't doubt a NFHS rule book stated such a thing, but I am not aware that for a ball to be legally caught, it was required to be inflight. As far as I'm concerned, "fielding" a ground ball is synonymous with "catching" a ground ball.

I don't have the book in front of me. But we should be looking at the rules desribing what a fielder must do with the ball when tagging an opponent or touching a base for a force.

Also - what a player may or may not do with a ball is also irrelevant to whether he/she controls it. It was mentioned that if a player couldn't throw the ball or hand the ball to a teammate, he doesn't possess it.

That's demonstrating control and voluntary release. I know this may be a stupid question, but does NFHS not recognize the throwing of a glove with the ball wedged in the webbing or fingers as a matter of control to put out a runner as long as the recepient controls them as a single unit?

Where is that in the book? I've never heard such a description of possession (in any sport). Certainly if the player's grasp (by her hand) is keeping the ball from dropping (to the ground or further down the shirt), the hand is CONTROLLING the ball - which is what is at issue.

[whiskers_ump]

Guess we could use NFHS Rule 1-8-3.....
"Loose equipment of the teams may not be on or
near the field."

or maybe

3-2-10.....
"Players shall wear/utilize uniforms/equipment
properly and as designed by the manufacturer."

Jersey's are not meant to catch softballs.

[Roger Greene]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Originally posted by mcrowder
[.

[That's demonstrating control and voluntary release. I know this may be a stupid question, but does NFHS not recognize the throwing of a glove with the ball wedged in the webbing or fingers as a matter of control to put out a runner as long as the recepient controls them as a single unit?

[

I'm not aware of a FED softball rule that covers that,
but Fed baseball does. A batted ball that is lodged in any players (defensive or offensive) uniform or equipment is dead (5-1-1 f 5) and a pitch or thrown ball lodged with the umpire or F2 is dead (5-1-1 g 4). The rule doesn't speak to a thrown ball that lodges with any player other than F2, but I recall seeing an authoritive ruling that ruled that ball dead as well as any ball lodged with the umpire. MLB made a ruling in August of this year that a ball lodged in a player's uniform was to be ruled dead.

Roger Greene

[IRISHMAFIA]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Roger Greene

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

I'm not aware of a FED softball rule that covers that,
but Fed baseball does. A batted ball that is lodged in any players (defensive or offensive) uniform or equipment is dead (5-1-1 f 5) and a pitch or thrown ball lodged with the umpire or F2 is dead (5-1-1 g 4). The rule doesn't speak to a thrown ball that lodges with any player other than F2, but I recall seeing an authoritive ruling that ruled that ball dead as well as any ball lodged with the umpire. MLB made a ruling in August of this year that a ball lodged in a player's uniform was to be ruled dead.

Roger Greene

So you are saying that if a fielder catches the ball and it gets stuck in the webbing, it is automatically a dead ball? I would hope that they would be a bit more specific, but then again, this is Fed.

[Roger Greene]

Yes Mike.

This play is Fed legend: (BASEBALL RULINGS ONLY)

Batter hits one hopper back to F1. The ball lodges in the webbing of F1's glove.

Fed ruling is the batted ball is dead, the batter is awarded 2nd base on a batted ball going out of play. (Don't tell me how unfair the ruling is, its the rule.)

OBR ruling is the ball is live and in play. F1 may tag 1st base or the runner and/or F1 may throw glove with lodged ball to F3, to record an out.

Same play, but ball goes inside the player's jersey. Fed ruling is the same, OBR as of last August states that the ball is dead, and the umpire places the runner(s) at the base he judges they would have reached. (no provisions for an out)

Roger Greene